Those numbers are interesting for sure. I really didn't think Rossi was down that far compared to others. However, those other riders have been very lucky to enter very strong teams. Rossi started with the 500cc bikes, which I doubt anyone could ride those monsters the way he did. The new crop of bikes that are all electronically controlled can make an ok rider great, but does little for an already great rider. It really levels the playing field.

Also, Rossi has had his career starting with teams that are severly struggling. He joins that team and gives them a championship team. Just look at Honda. They weren't winning anything Until Rossi joined that team and made them something. He then went to Yamaha, another struggling team and turned them right around. He is now with Ducati, another team with major issues. I have little doubt that Ducati will have a winning team again. So if you take out the races that he was in the middle of developing a bike, he would be far greater than those numbers show. Just as now, the races he is having with Ducati show him to not be very good. Yet next year he will be winning. But his percentage will already be lower due to the years of development. So I won't judge a rider based on purely numbers, its just too small of a snap shot of the entire rider.

I guess my point is. based on pure numbers, Rossi doesn't look that impressive. Look at the whole picture. and he is in a league of his own. Rossi could never win another race and his legacy will go on for a long time for what he has accomplished.

 

I agree, Rossi is the GOAT, but today the others are right there. I can only say it's a choice, he's gone to ok teams & improved them. Stoner did win with Ducati...

 

I agree very much with Squid. Stoner is on a bike right now that in some way Rossi's talent is in that bike. Lorenzo is riding Rossi and edwards development. I think Stoner can develop a bike. He did indeed win on the Duc. Thing is I think he couldn't bring it any further for some reason. He beat Rossi on it,but that year Rossi was still diligently working to get the Yamaha right with Edwards.

 

i'll give you lorenzo is riding on rossi and edwards developement - but in no way is stoner riding on rossi's development. rossi and burgess weren't at honda long enough to develop anything as soon as they went to 990cc displacement. only 1 season. add to the fact that now they are running an 800 bike - which is a completely different machine. add further to that fact that the rcv212 is a completely different bike this year from last year because of mainly the transmission - rossi had nothing to do with honda's success this year. how do you make that arguement?

look, i'll agree that those numbers are just numbers and do not explain the entire picture, but bads1, you do tend to think rossi is super human. and while i do think and agree with you that he is the GOAT, i do think that from a solely riding/racer position, he's not the end-all/be-all. as far as the total package (character, bike development, and team-player) he is great though

and if you're really trying to make the stoner/rossi arguement, then i'll make the arguement that rossi is riding on stoner's development. and guess what, stoner's development of the ducati has proven to be better than rossi's development thus far. he won a championship, rossi hasn't lived up to any of the italian's or many of the mainstream's expectations.

the real test will be next season. next season, again we'll see a scrap match like '03 season (500cc's battling 990's). that'll be the real test. 800s vs. 1000s. yamaha is staying with their 800, right? ducati is going 1000, so is honda, so we'll see then.

btw - anyone see mid-ohio?

as for as sportbike was concerned, damn i love watching those guys scrap. i love danny, that boy is going places, and he's a racer. hahaha he slept in through qualifying and still managed a top on the box finish and another podium.


and as far as superbike, geoff may got that new buell, it looked real good, i hope we see continued development. but i was amped to see the ktm - i had no idea they were going to do ama. i hope chris fillmore does well enough to convice ktm to do an entire season next year. that RC8 is awesome.

 

Ok..... ya gotta read what I typed and maybe think about it before responding. I know the Honda has not Rossi's signature on it any longer. But when Rossi came to Honda they sucked and bad. They have learned from Rossi and crew chief that has followed him through thick And thin. So yes in a way they have been able to stay on the right track since.


As far as Rossi being Super human??? Nahh theres up comers that I think are starting to show. I however have a feeling it won't be stoner. I think he doesn't have the developing skill's others have. Yamaha still has Edwards as long as he doesn't retire. Pedrosa ...... well who do you think had alot to do with the over all size of the year before Honda ??? That thing was designed for a Midget (Pedrosa). Thats why Nicky couldn't ride it and had to make many adjustments just to make more room on the bike.



And then the statement Rossi is riding Stoner's Development??? Stoner won a championship when Rossi was hard at work with Edwards getting the Yamaha where its at today. The Duc that Rossi is riding in the races right now is his development as far as Chassis concerned. I'm quite sure you will see a different story next year with the engine along with it. Nothing against Stoner or many of todays GP riders. But they are electronics riders. Rossi comes from the days along with Edwards and even Nicky to make a bike work. So there feedback is very much so taken seriously.


I watched Mid Ohio. Yeah Danny has a career ahead of him. I'm waiting for him to jump to Superbike. I have a feeling if he does he'll be on a Buell possibly. A few of the guys are serious riders.... Westby,Heron,Disalvo... even taylor Knapp. The KTM is cool but I don't understand how it got approved?? AMA rules state that the class bikes cannot go over a $40,000 value. That KTM had thousand's just in electronics on board. And its the points leader in German Superbike as we speak. This bike is the exact to the German spec bike. I don't know somethings just not clear.

 

What?? your questioning how there can be an unfair bike in AMA????

On a serious note. I think they are merely in a testing phase and only running a few races. They have no chance to win a championship and are only there to collect data, which may explain why the allowance of equipment since it may be more data collection than actual performance enhancement. I don't even know if their placement in the race counts as a official place. But either way, the AMA needs to appeal to more people since there aren't many choices of bikes in the mix. At least, in the upper mix. Your either going to see a suzuki or a yamaha. I personally don't even like the KTM, but its good to see some variety.

I haven't heard anything for certain. But it would be very strange for Yamaha to stay where they are, unless they are fearful of their development abilities. If anyone stayed with the 800cc it should be Honda. They have the smallest racers out there, so the smaller bike would suit them better.

As for the arguement... I can't believe it, but I am agreeing with BADS1 more so the Conrice....

 

Yeah I knew you'd say that. The 1125 was fair. Weight penalty up the *** and to validate my point. Eslick won a championship on it. But just barley it was a fight to the end. Then he went to Suzuki... he just barely lost by what a point or two. And look at him this year again. Hes doing about the same between the two bikes. If there doing testing on the KTM and possibly thinking of doing a full season next year. Then why not test a bike that isn't at 100,000 Euro.

 

o, i did think. my point is.... where has honda been in the last few years.... nowhere. they have struggled - and to your point, i think its because of pedrosa. if what you're saying is true, that they have been on track since rossi, why have they not been doing well in the last few years? they certainly have the budget to spend on development. pedrosa, as much as i dont like him, and dovi, they sure as hell can ride a bike fast, so it's not because of those 2. where in the last few years, were the lessons they learned from rossi and burgess? did they forget those lessons over the last few years, and then suddenly remember them this year? this bike, this year... its the engineers and the riders at honda doing the business. not what rossi taught them a long time ago, because look at the evidence of the years between when rossi left and this year... your point doesn't add up imo.

edit - another way to look at what i'm saying. if you think that honda is still doing well because of what rossi/burgess did back when they were at repsol, then, by your logic, yamaha will be doing just fine next year and it won't matter as much that lorenzo can't develop a bike, because yamaha will have learned from rossi and bugress

and i whole-heartedly agree that lorenzo, stoner, and pedrosa are electronics riders. and that the likes of hayden, rossi, edwards are non electronics riders.

justasquid, i heard that yamaha was staying with the 800's during the last broadcast - or it may have been during the assen race. i, too, was quite surprised because look what happened back in the day - john hopkins and gary mccoy didn't stand a chance againts the 990's when they stuck with the 500s, but biaggi was pretty fast on the new 990 m1.

and its not like elbows is the smallest rider out there, lorenzo isn't huge, but he's no pedrosa or stoner (weight wise) either.


and ktm is only running 3 circuits this season. its just for testing to see whether or not they should race in the ama, i think.

 

Umm I seem to remember Stoner going fast on the Honda day one.... first leg thrown over the Honda. So I'd say Stoner had zero, none, notta,nothing to do with this years development of the Honda. So I'd say Honda did learn a bit from the earlier days with Rossi. When he left he did the same for Yamaha.... but Yamaha still has Edwards and his development skill's keep's him around. So yes Yamaha could still be strong. I guess what we'll have to wait for is next year. Stoner has already said that riding the 800 to the 1000 is not a big difference. So hes set the way he makes it sound. And Rossi has ridden the new chassis in the last race but said that the new chassis is by far different on how it acts with 1000 engine in it.

 

its due to a lil bit more electronics and the transmission.



which rossi had absolutely nothing to do with. nor did rossi's influences...