Normally the head so long as no milling is needed(not warped) use metal straightedge to see if warped(I doubt it is) So head cleaned and valves should be ~$250. so long as No NEW valves are needed. If going machine shop route strip it clean to just head and valves then bring in both and tell them to make 1 from the best and just dip the spare, then put in a box for you to take both. cost ~$300(50 for xtra dip).
Cost for you to do it. <$50 plus knowledge is priceless or if put a price on it. The 4-stroke advanced engine class at MMI is ~$2300. So I guess you can put a price on knowledge. (MMI Phx Class of Thursday, '94 Graduate TOC.(only pts ever lost was 5pts for upside down ring in 2-stroke, but had good excuse.. who gives a crap if you can read the ring afterwards, you woulda saved the box tab for reorder anyway, real reason was 5 of us were racing to put engine together and running 1st for kitty of $100. I lost 5pts. BUT had fire in ~15min and $100 for beer and food all weekend))
If you have the Money of course that's the best way to go.. Plus you wont need to clean the other head. I would w/o a doubt do Everything myself for the Monster Build Except the bore and sleeve. That's back to the Machine shop for ~$400 plus sleeves. $30-$100 each(shop around) but need them to bore it to the water-jackets then give you the size. Its a cart/horse thing. as different sized sleeves have dif price tags and a ballpark size only gets you a ballpark price. The price isn't real until you make the purchase. Nikasil sleeves, very strong and thin, plus tight piston clearance for max bore gain. and don't bore till ready to buy sleeves(minimal exposure to atmo from bore to sleeving).
For bottom end after cleaning just run metal straight edge over it to be sure block is square so no milling needed. No need for shop. (until ready to bore #2, maybe take 0.0015" across the top of both head and block for optimal fit using 2-layer copper gasket for max CR.(but that's all later stuff).
So depending on if you have an extra $300 laying around or not. Its your choice. Shop will automatically quick-cut both seats and valves as its faster/easier than cleaning and sizing. with 16 valves to choose from for 8 you shouldn't need new valves. Pretty positive none of the valves or seats have ever been cut and from factory you can 99% get 3 cuts on factory engine before need to replace(unless its a guy that turns rotors for a living then maybe 2. Works in a 0.1 Scale world over a 0.001 Scale world)
I believe in choices. We are given so few in our lifetime. Its a choice to ride its a choice to replace/repair/rebuild, its a choice to do any above alone/not alone/professionally. etc. I say make an educated choice. You still haven't gone to the Honda shop and bought the shop manual for Your Bike yet. Do that then read the sections for servicing the head and block. Figure out how much of it you know at 1st look, how much you can understand/figure out, aqt 1st look, and how much makes you scratch both your head and *** at the same time wondering WTF??!!?? Then determine what your confidence level might be. Then read it a 2nd time, and after that look up the head scratching things(will lessen from 1st time as your brain will be in mecha-mode 2nd time) then figure what you are comfortable with, see if someone local can eval your work when done(at stages preferably) or not. Then decide if the 1st engine goes to shop for rehaul, just dip, or not at all.
If go shop route while there ask how much to dip block, $20-30 go for it. More? offer $25 get him to $30max. Dude your already hitting me up for $300 out of my grocery money.. $25 just to dip the block no work, we can do that right..??.. one bike block more or less won't taint his dip noticeably at all. So your buying him dinner at no cost to him really. Plus the future bore and sleeve job, and good customer relations. Might toss it in the tank for free. Send an xmas card to shop as a TY. Just get all the big crap off block as best you can before hand. No metal tools around gasket surfaces or cyl. Use block #2 as practice block to get the feel of Ball-Honeing. Maybe if show up with both blocks ask which will be better for rebuild(no machining, Ballhone only) vs. Monster(Bored, Milled) then ask to dip both. He might do so just to eval which for which.(beforehand u chose which for which, see if agree and why/why not.(learning opportunity) Letm know its his shop will be YOUR/and friends shop come Monster time in a few months.
When get your head home Mic Everything 3X to see all is as should be and labeled, be a picky ninny, anything off bring it back for fix, all's right. Xmas card. Even professionals make mistakes. You can make a mistake checking for mistakes. (How did I know you 1/2 assed the Cyl measurements.. #s didn't add up not even knowing factory specs. But realistically they didn't matter as you woulda seen excessive wear damage plain as day, and normal wear wouldn't toss you outta range even at 50k miles. and there wasn't excessive wear damage in the pics.). Same as a leak-down or comp test don't matter, as you are rebuilding the engine anyway, so you can physically inspect it tearing it down. You knew already bad rings so that any cyl is 'ok' matters not, as you will rering all 4 anyway not just 3 of them, plus all the crap in the heads, the surprise would be 1 not whistling, but it also doesn't matter you are rebuilding. Don't sweat the things you are checking 'just to see' because even if 3 cyl all came back perfect it still wouldn't effect the job. You don't crack an engine and only rering 1 piston, its open so you do them all. you don't freshen the valves on 1 cyl., the head is off, so you do them all. If you had an engine with 500miles on it, aside from going Wholly **** this engine has only 500miles on it!! Then you might just repair the 1 cylinder. But most likely.. You would still do them all...
I say this is one of the few choices you get. Either way their is no bad choice. EXCEPT. Buy a Honda Shop Manual for your bike. I don't believe there is ever a choice in that. Not Haynes, or PDF.. Those may be in addition to but not instead of. The choice here will be if you do as Id suggested.. Spiral binding and copy/sleeve/3-ring binders the manual after you get it. You can sometimes find them because of bikes age, new on Eday or Glamazon, just be sure its Factory service manual and not just a PDF you are getting. Check with Kinkos etc how much cost is to print/sleeve/3-ring and spiral bind copy of a ~500pg PDF? Think it'd cost more than using book plus cost of 2 books, but Ive been wrong before and will again. But maybe they offer some kind of discount.
If you've never seen a Factory Service manual before you are in for a treat. They're amazing.. Especially Honda and Triumph(never read a Victory, or Norton out of the major builders, but otherwise) with fairly basic skills and a desire to learn they tell you everything and how to do everything step by step no skips. Unless you want skips then you keep going down the page rather than to the box/column to the right. They are written as a functional guide from beginner to advanced gearhead. Step by step directions to complete spec charts. When the kids were kids Mom read them Winnie The Poo, and Dad read them reringing their CR-80, at bedtime(until they were old enough to be Vernians).
Guess you can toss out 1/2 of what I wrote here as noticed on a Ramble.
Keep the bullet points. Buy a Service Manual, read the engine section, reread, chose self or shop, or combo. Do a pro/con list if not sure. Then Choose. They are both right answers, just decide which is Most Right For You. (Time/money/skill/confidence/curiosity/desire) I guess are the main factors of your choice. I know I left something out as I always do, and wouldn't know it until it was MY decision to make.


All your choice. Except for 1 thing is not a choice.(?)
There you go.. Knew you'd get it..

 

Thanks for the advice everyone. Based on everything, for the head I think I will get the valves cut at a machine shop and rebuild the rest myself, new parts as needed.

JohnnyRocket - I wanted to measure the cyl bores so I can make informed decision on whether to go with machine bore/etc at shop or ball hone at home. And also to compare with the new engine, so I can pick the ones that seems in better condition. of course I wouldnt just replace 1 or 2 rings and reuse the rest. Actually it ended up I got the wrong bore measuring tool (thought I was getting the one with built in dial gauge but the one I received is just the telescopic T that you gotta take out and measure). ordered a diff one but meantime I went ahead and tried measuring with it anyway, not sure how accurate I got it but if the measurements I got are fairly close then the actual cyl bores are within spec but the out of round and taper is quite out of spec. Funnily enough Cyl #2 had almost perfect (almost no round and taper) which is the cyl that had the weirdly low compression (30 while others 70-80). Hmm...
Anyway I'm gonna remeasure the cyls when I receive the other gauge. I have the service manual pdf but will look into getting myself a physical copy. been taking notes from you and everyone, just need to figure out what exact parts I need to replace and which ones I can reuse before I actually "start" the rebuild, start collecting tools and materials and such. The other day I just got way mentally overwhelmed lol.

Both old engine head and cyl block was very very straight (measured w metal straightedge and feeler gauge) also starting to measure some other things. old camshaft, buckets, valve springs etc all are good dunno about valve guides yet


I also measured valve clearances on the new engine. All intakes .17-.18 (still barely within spec) and exh .21-22 (all too tight) which seemed fairly standard. HOWEVER when I took off the camshaft covers I discovered something interesting...

Can you see it?

Corresponding surface on camshaft

I guess it's pretty clear which cyl head I'm going to use for the rebuild now

Think I need new valves as well, the exhaust valves dont look too bad but the intakes look kinda bad to me dunno if they're worth trying to fix up. These are from my old engine, dunno about the new ones yet until I take them out



Thanks again everybody.

 

like said exh held integrity.. sadly not carbon on intake.. toast.. other head and cams not tore up? good as this wont hold oil.. cyl 2 less wear most likely toast rings so was oiled all the time. Not good for a small area of explosions, but.
well you've gotten tons of advice from several directions. take what works for you and be sure to enjoy yourself. For me I finally got the new 6th gear I had cut curious what new top end will be with a final drive ratio of 0.931:1 when 1.137:1 gives 208.. Im actually shaking and haven't pulled my engine yet..lolol It might just lock up if drop into 6th under 170? I have no idea.. gonna be fun finding out..
tip for your mic work.. ever used a cmpass, the drawing circles kind, need a deft touch to swirl it around.. use that same touch to check your IDs. as tapers and OOR are the real cyl killers. a front to back oval wide at bottom is more common than cyl wear at the top. basic physics. I got the EE for a paycheck, the ME was for fun.. Sug for while at school still. Tuition usually has a cap 16 or 20ch then after that classes are free. go freakin nuts on free classes and if they threaten GPA drop them day before finals. Just for erroneous knowledge anyway. or ends up you walk out with multiple skins opening options. I am a big believer in choices. hopefully by this time in 2 weeks under the full moon my latest choice hasn't killed me somewhere on the 10. welp my fav assistant heard my NIN anthology playing and is reading over my shoulder. all this made me want to do a rebuild as well since pulling engine(hate that part RR engine) she dropped Drowning Pool Bodies so time to go..
Be thorough. recheck your checks, read and reread, label well, BE PATIENT, everyone screws up until its muscle memory.. HAVE FUN WITH IT.. M says GL.. Hasta..

 

Thats a good tip about the compass analogy, will try that.
Yeah I think I have a pretty clear idea on where to go from here now. Thank you for all your detailed advice on this thread, really helped me go from overwhelmed n clueless to having a good direction.
Good luck with your new 6th gear as well...!

Again thanks everybody, gonna go to the machine shops this wk!!!

 

How'd it work out?
For me I had to order a new pair of gears.. Again..
Success.. 227 on radar..

 

Hi JohnnyRocket!
What happened with the 6th gear you got before??? so it worked or didn't work?

As for me I've been pretty busy with school (finals month ..) so I havent been able to work on the bike as much as i'd like

However I finally got the valves done at a local place like everyone suggested, the guy found a set of valves he could reuse from the 32 I brought him so no new valves bought just like you said, just new stem seals

There's some green stuff around the valves, I'm guessing it's the stuff he used to test the valve faces.
I tested it by putting acetone brake cleaner on the wells and blowing compressed air through the intake/exhaust ports. No bubbles
But I wanted to test it more as well as test the cylinders of the junk engine before taking it apart, I measured the tops of the cyls inside diameter and they were good so I put the rebuild head with a new headgasket on the junk engine. I read online that as long as engine hasn't been fired it's ok to reuse headgasket, and at the very worst I'll just buy a new headgasket. But I thought it'd be great if the junk engine ran that way I can still ride while working on rebuilding the original
So I did several leakdown test without cams on the rebuilt head + junk engine, and got some really weird results

Cyl 1
TDC: 0~2.5%
BDC: 32~45% (would not hold air!!)
leaks past ring
Cyl 2
TDC: 0~3.8%
BDC: 2.7~3.8%
leaks past ring
Cyl 3
TDC: 6.7~10%
BDC: 5~6.7%
this one is leaking from intake valves
Cyl 4
TDC: 15~17.3%
BDC: 12.5~13.3%
leaks past ring

1) looks like intake valves are leaking, just on #3. Is this normal for a fresh valve job? I did some research some people wrote that new valve job may take some running in but dunno why just two would be like that
2) What on earth would cause a cylinder to have good leakdown results on TDC but completely leak out at BDC? All I can think of is that there's a huge scratch or crack down the cylinder
3) I did a valve clearance check while head was on so I can get new shims this wk too. All of them tighter as expected with new valve job (0.09~.0.17mm for intake and .19~.22mm for exhaust) BUT two valves were so tight I couldn't even get my smallest feeler gauge in (0.04mm) what??? is that normal?? lol????

On the good side, I also got around to measuring my original cylinders with the proper tools. My original measurements were way off haha! Thanks for the "compass hand" tip btw Johnny, that really helped.
So it looks like I can get away with just ball honing and new rings (correct me if I'm wrong)
Cyl 1:
67.04/67.03
67.04/67.02
67.04/67.02
Cyl 2:
67.03/67.05
67.04/67.04
67.04/67.03
Cyl 3:
67.03/67.05
67.03/67.04
67.03/67.04
Cyl 4:
67.05/67.04
67.05/67.03
67.05/67.03

I'll probably take it to the shop this weekend and get their opinion and final list of parts


Oh Also what is 227? 227 mph?? sorry if I sound ignorant lol

 

Yours first..
Good he was able to find useable valves among the lot as Id thought.
Im sure he cut both seat and heads and faced the stems as needed(as you cut the seat and heads it basically makes the stems longer so they face the tips if need be to correct the length) then as you thought they used a marker(green stuff) to inspect the seating of the heads to the seats(good craftwork).
Its fine to be running compression and leakdown tests on a known bad/used engine, good practice, but the results will generally be erroneous. there may be a scratch or nick further down, more likely a carbon bump(compresses ring to go over it, but that breaks seal for all the rest of the ring as it pushes it away, just the slightest, from the cyl.
Ball honing removes any such nicks or carbon buildup(your using a greenie to clean a dirty Teflon coated frying pan after making fried chicken for dinner, not removing any Teflon just the grease and remaining burnt chicken bits stuck to pan.. Decent analogy) and as the engine is opened up reringing is a defacto task(screw it done this much, reringing is a given) Then compression and/or leakdown tests will look MUCH more reasonable, and you will see that aside from the practice of actually Doing the tests before, it was a waste of time to try to make any sense of the readings you had got.
Ignorance is bliss, knowledge is power, wisdom is knowing the difference and how to apply one to the other.
For the 2 zero gap valves double check the length from stem end to cyl head(listed in manual) possible they needed the ends faced but weren't done(?) if length is in spec, were the bearings correctly torqued, did you use new or old cam bearings, etc.
Best to not be concerned until done with bottom end and assembling engine making ready to run it.
If your head gasket is a crush-type its made for single use only(so long as not fired up and Clean surfaces you should be able to 'try' it a couple times with no prob,(when doing prefire comp/LD tests it will hold or leak then, so Id 'reuse' it as little as possible, personally Id only use any crush gasket once fire or not as Id hate to reopen an engine over a $5 gasket)) if you got say a layered copper gasket, you can torque it down Many times with no ill effect(I like layered copper head gaskets, as also by how many layers ~2-5, you can tweak your compression and valve lift. thicker gasket larger combustion area, greater valve lift.. less layers smaller area greater compression more advanced timing.. a thou here a thou there, makes 100rpm here, 0.2hp there.. its a 100 pennies makes a dollar type thing)
Glad you picked up a feel for using your mic. Its a practice thing, and if you can relate using it to something you've already learned to do, it speeds the learning curve. Most of what you will do in this rebuild, will in some way be relatable to an already developed muscle memory you have from doing something in the past.
Give each step you do a thought before doing it, build it in your head a step at a time before actually doing each step, and I think you'll be surprised at how much will relate to something else you have already learned/done unrelated to building a bike engine(part of the fun if you ask me, discovering relatable lessons) visa versa, in the future when doing something else it may remind you of the time you were doing a part of this.)))


Now mine..
the tranny gears are square cut which wear with time, I'd tried to get away with only replacing the 2ndary gear and sending a trace of the primary(its pair) didn't work.
You need a proper % of gear contact. Too much and they will pinch and lock up, too little and they will be loose and explode.
The gear Id waited so long for he overcut the teeth making it too tight. if it was a say 5kRPM engine not a problem.. much.. but in a 14kRPM engine, the gears woulda wedged leading to a minimum of locking up the tranny at 200+mph or worse shattering every part of the tranny and leaving several holes in the engine as the gear pieces exited the trans.
So I sent him both the gears and had him make a matching pair with the exactly correct clearances. (HUGE HAPPY FACE HERE)
So after reassembling the engine, mounting and test running it I hit the hwy with my neighbor(a Deputy Sheriff with a radar gun) last weekend. Where my bike had topped out at 208, it now runs up to 227(yes miles per hour as you figured) and perhaps a bit more if I raise the rev limiter. So I was able to make a new scratch mark on my speedo(only clocks to 185). I cant functionally use 6th gear until ~110mph now as the engine drops to about 4k at 110 in 6th. (BUT should get awesome gas milage down the Hwy at legal(ish) speeds with the engine not much over freakin idle!!!)
Planning a trip with M warms back up, curious to see if I have a 100+mile/gal rice rocket..)) Who knows what it might be..
Itching for us to take a long trip, like cross country to Daytona in a few months, to test it.))))))))))))
Still in the 'tweak tweak stage' as Im sure I can top 230mph maybe 240(?). I really don't know, and cant wait to find out, as I didn't even have my NOS onboard for safety.
So now, below 160ish, it performs like any other semi-stock litre-bike, but I have an actual overdrive 6th gear.
Ill do my best to take a look each weekend or every couple, to see how you are doing on your builds. If my 2cents can help. Im sure there are many others who would be happy to help if you hit some bumps. Im curious to see how you do on your 1st as like everything else there is only 1 first anything.
Outta my 3 kids only my baby girl found the therapy from tweaking an engine.((
Personally I think it's a Great Bug to catch, very cathartic.
So even if no problems drop a progress report as you go, after you get started next month.
Hasta