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Passing!

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Old 02-21-2013, 01:21 PM
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Default Passing!

Why is it that some guys are able to effortlessly pass people on the track while others struggle to get by even obviously slower riders? What makes someone good at passing?
 
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:27 PM
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Timing.

Also helps to have a bike set up better and ability to use all of it.
 
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:48 PM
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Confidence. Out braking someone into the corner you need to be confident that your bike will be able to handle a different line into the corner and later braking. Hard to get passed someone when you are hesitant about the front tucking under braking or being able to get on the gas coming out of the corner.
 
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by 74demon View Post
Timing.
+1. You need to set up the pass, particularly where the other rider has a more powerful bike.

For example, a less skilled rider might pin the throttle on the straights and park it in the corners. If you follow too close into a corner, you may have to slow down to his cornering speed if you don't want to, or the organization's rules don't permit, passing him in the corner. Then you've lost your chance to pass him on the next straight since you're exiting the turn at his speed. So once you see this happening, you back off enough so that you can carry more speed through the corner but not catch up to him till you're at or past the apex, and then go past him exiting the corner. Once you beat him to the next corner and take that at your speed while he takes it at his, you'll never see him again.

A coach once told me you're not ready for the next group when you're being held up by slower riders. You're ready when the slower riders don't hold you up any more.
 
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Old 02-21-2013, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Munson View Post
A coach once told me you're not ready for the next group when you're being held up by slower riders. You're ready when the slower riders don't hold you up any more.
That's a good pointer right there.

I usually do track days during week days so there's a lot less track density and I get lucky and get to "play" with the control riders/coaches. Most of them are on 600s and I'm on a 1000 and coming out of turn 14, I usually can't catch 'em till the middle/end of the straight. I always figured it was just the drive out of the corner itself, but they've told me turn 10 determines how I'll end up coming out of 14 onto the straight. Lots to do with how you set up for the drive.

Picture for reference:


IMO, it's everything including trust in your front end (braking and entry speeds), your line, your throttle setup, and a few things I don't know about yet.
 
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:06 PM
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Not even going to begin to guess. Jist patiently waiting for an answer
 
  #7  
Old 02-23-2013, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by 74demon View Post
Timing.

Also helps to have a bike set up better and ability to use all of it.
Timing and set up will help for sure.

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime View Post
Confidence. Out braking someone into the corner you need to be confident that your bike will be able to handle a different line into the corner and later braking. Hard to get passed someone when you are hesitant about the front tucking under braking or being able to get on the gas coming out of the corner.
Confidence is key, but how do riders gain confidence in passing that's kinda what I'm looking for here

Originally Posted by Kuroshio View Post
Not even going to begin to guess. Jist patiently waiting for an answer
Hahahaha, love it, though there isn't really a "right" answer in this case I just like a good discussion

But, I think passing (as with a lot of good riding skill) comes from having good visual skills. People that are good at passing on the track tend to "see" differently then those that get hung up behind slower riders.

What do our eyes tend to immediately look at when we approach a slower rider? Typically the first things our eyes stare at is the rider in front! How might that have an effect on our ability to pass? What do you think expert passers look at?

Misti
 
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Old 04-10-2013, 11:18 AM
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Its like chess, you have to be able to anticipate several moves ahead. If you are stuck behind someone, look at the lines they are taking, how far do they cut into corners? Where is their braking point? If you can anticipate where they will be 5 seconds from now, you can more confidently take the steps to pass them. Its all about being able to anticipate what will happen next
 
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Old 04-16-2013, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by nobody View Post
Its like chess, you have to be able to anticipate several moves ahead. If you are stuck behind someone, look at the lines they are taking, how far do they cut into corners? Where is their braking point? If you can anticipate where they will be 5 seconds from now, you can more confidently take the steps to pass them. Its all about being able to anticipate what will happen next
It is like chess in a lot of ways in that you need to be able to anticipate what the other riders will do. Following behind and watching their lines and getting a feel for where they will be next corner or next time around can certainly help and I would say is a good and safe method for passing at track days. However, when you are racing you won't want to spend that extra time waiting to figure this out, you want to be able to get around the rider fast. Or, if you are finding that you are constantly being held up by slower riders then you would need to take a look at what YOU are doing (with your eyes) so that you can effectively pass better and quicker without wasting any time.

Most of the time is has to do with target fixating or narrowing down your vision so that you are momentarily looking at WHERE the other rider IS instead of WHERE the rider ISN'T.

How might working on keeping your vision open WIDE and seeing more of the track that is OPEN instead of the small space that the rider is taking up help you with your passing? How do you train your eyes to do this?

Misti
 
  #10  
Old 09-19-2013, 08:38 AM
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Hey all,

I am quite late on this but still offer a unique perspective.

The key to passing as listed above is ability to anticipate. It also is the comfort of riding in close proximity. The easiest pass to make is one off the exit of a turn. The mistakes made during this pass include too much gas, too much lean angle, or too close for setup. Ill speak about each.

Gas - All riders have this "when in doubt gas it out" philosophy. It is correct with a few exceptions. Great lean angle is one of them. The key to making a pass is doing it quickly. As all riders have different comfort levels while being passed, you need to rip the bandaid off so to speak, so its done before they know it began. In saying this, gas is your friend, but be mindful of your lean angle, and track width.

Lean angle - I covered lean angle in a lengthy post months back, where I said the key to going fast is keeping your bike upright. The taller the bike, the greater surface area of tire making contact with the ground, the more gas you can gradually apply before you begin to lose traction. That being said, you need to lean it, or rather, the bike will lean while cornering. Finding the happy medium of gas application and lean angle is what every rider is searching for. Without getting too far into the weeds, trail-braking is your friend. Especially when you begin to fight for 1/2 seconds. Without getting someone killed, I will say, you can generally trail-brake longer, harder, than your body says, or your brain tells you. But these increases are meant to be made gradually. Leave the trail braking for races and advanced sessions where the margin of skill is so close to make a pass you have to trail brake.

Setup - This is my favorite. As someone above said, its like "chess." You are tailing a rider who is undoubedly slower than you, but you cannot find a way around him because he is on a 1000 or out throttles you on the straights. This is what you need to do. Back off his rear about 15 bike lengths, where he is exiting the turn as you are entering. Watch the gap at these points, and somewhere on the track you will see you are closing the gap at say turn 6 by a significant margin. The closing however needs to be done on the gas not on the brakes, since we are going for an exit pass maneuver. When the turn or area is identified, shadow him closer (5-6) bike lengths, for a lap and watch the area you want to pass to visually see his ability, lines, exit speed, entry speed, consistency, etc. If he is not driving like an idiot, the next lap roll on the gas a fraction harder on the exit, as you have already visually seen on the previous laps, that you can exit faster than him, a fractional roll on will "rip the bandaid" on the pass. Use all of the track, and know, you will be in close proximity, unless he has a horrible line.

WhaLA the pass is made.

I have found in a TD scenario, showing a front wheel only makes someone ride more erratic, and over their head, risking both of our lives. Don't show him a front wheel, show him the back, make the pass once, and you shouldn't worry about seeing him again this session, unless you are truly slower.


Hope this helps

Karl
 
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