Rudely, thank you for the links and the help ..its all significant actually in my book ..both you and Woo are right here :-)

I was about to tell Woo look at the title of the thread again ..lol ... what we have here is a whole thread dedicated to using counter steering safely on the road and staying alive because, yes at the end of the day the only thing that will keep you from crashing is to counter steer that bike around the object and not lean ..as far as racing goes its the same only the speeds are so much higher and greater forces are involved ..we counter steer the bike around a race track with even greater forces put through the bars but at these kinds of speeds we really get into centrifugal and centripetal forces too, hence the hanging off at these speeds, its not so much as to make the bike lean as to work against the great forces trying to fling you outward ..road or track, its all counter steeering, its all good and I would love to race a bike around the track one day before I grow too much older just to see what I can really do!! :-)

Jules

 

Yeah, I have to say, my posts did come out a lot harsher than I intended. Sorry about that Rudely.

As for the leaning, yes it does help out at higher rates of speed, but we know that no one here does anything like that on the road, right? (wink, wink) We've had a few threads based on this...mostly by people saying that they lean to make the bike turn. I get my threads confused.

I personally don't drag knee, but the one thing I do take out of that video (and videos like it), is that I look over the my mirror in which I'm turning to help balance the bike a little. At the 55 mph range and less, I find that sufficient to help me out. Maybe someday, I'll try a test track and do the rest. Who knows. I just feel that if I am in a position to do that on the street, then I'm probably going to fast for the conditions (you never know when you will come across a pile of gravel or horse dung on the turn.

 

Here is another simple and brief explanation of counter steering ... well worth a quick read to recap all we have been saying here and a nice easy article for novices to follow :-)


http://www.virginiawind.com/tips/steering.asp



Leaning into the corner. This is how most people go round corners before they learn about counter steering. It basically involves leaning a little in the direction you want to go, and as if by magic the bike seems to turn that way. But leaning alone wont turn the bike; watch racers as they approach bends. They shift their weight to one side long before the bend in preparation for hanging off, but the bike still travels in a straight line so shifting your body weight doesnt have any effect.
What actually causes the bike to turn is that as you lean your body into the corner you gently push the inside handlebar away from you. Effectively what you are doing is counter steering, you just dont know it

You can use the leaning technique for you entire biking life and never have a problem, but if you want to steer quickly and precisely you need to use...........

Counter steering. The basic theory goes: - Turn the bars to the left and the bike will go right. Counter intuitive, counter steering*. So how does it work? When you first counter steer, the bike will actually begin to move in the direction you turn the bars. If you want to prove this , try aiming at a mark in the road and counter steer just before you get to it, you will will pass the mark on the road on the side that you have steered and then move in the other direction immediately afterwards. Its this initial movement in the "right " direction that helps the bike to tip into the corner . Gyroscopic forces from turning the spinning front wheel accentuate this. Using counter steering lets you pick the exact spot at which you want to begin turning. It also allows you to get the bike turning very quickly, instead of waiting for it to drop slowly into the corner. On roads you know you should aim to use counter steering to get to your maximum chosen lean angle for the corner as quickly as possible, instead of slowly easing the bike over and then easing it upright again. Counter steering means that you dont need to lean the bike as far over for the same speed through the corner.


Steering with the throttle. There are two ways to steer with the throttle, one is very easy , the other very difficult. 1. Easy. This relies on the fact that for the same lean angle the bike will turn tighter the slower its going. So if you want to tighten your line in a corner you should slow down and if you want to open it up you should accelerate. But beware and bare in mind that backing off mid-corner is best avoided if you are leaning a long way as it loads the front tire and could cause it to slide. 2. Difficult. Accelerate hard enough whilst in the corner and the back tire will begin to slide outwards, pointing the bike into the corner and tightening the turn, Its called over steer. Top racers use all the time to modify their line in a corner but for road riding it has limited benefits and big drawbacks if you get it wrong. If you shut the throttle when the rear is sliding youre likely to high side.


Weighting the pegs Some racers say that they make minor adjustments in corners by putting pressure on the footpegs. The best way to see if this works is to try it. Road riding experts say that this has little relevance to road riding. [blockquote] *A reader sent in the following note:
Just a little additional info on "counter steering". The term refers to a law of physics known as gyroscopic precession. Very simply the law states that "a rotating body when turned through its axis will tilt with equal force in an opposite direction". To demonstrate the law, hold the axle of a bicycle wheel between your hands, held straight out infront of you. Now get someone to spin the bicycle wheel. If you then try to turn the axle,as you would the handle bars of your motorcycle, you will notice that the top of the wheel will lean in the opposite direction to the turn. Not much of an explanation but it may help you to understand whats going on between your wheels and bars! [/blockquote]

 

Hi i'm Greg (and a newby to this forum) 89 1000 (hurricane for those in the US)

As said above the countersteering skill is invaluable.

I thought i would share a few things I have learn't over the years (younger days on Blades and track days)

The Footpeg weighting skill works well (loads one side of bike and lowers centre of gravity), But on low grip surfaces if you apply this principal, left turn and load left peg, if you lose grip at rear the bike will fall. will try and spin on it own axis.

I'll put it this way, You all see in fast bikes maghow these guys are doing long controlled power slides.

This is acheived by, lots of throttle and if the are sliding left they are loading up the right peg. too try and push the bike back under the slide.


Another skill which works well and is super simple is to lean you body and shift your bodyweight. (more applicable at high speed 120kph+)

What i meanif you are going into a right corner push your right shoulder and dropthe same bum cheak off the seat going into the corner this places more downforce from your body (acting as a spoiler sort of) and shifting you centre of gravityfor the bike to lean over, and I use this in conjuction with counter steering and footpeg weighting.


Another simple skill is if you are going into a corner to hot, you can use therear brake(DO NOT EASE OFF THE THROTLE) this will drop the back of the bike, hense reducing wheelbase and increasing steering geometery and will tighten the linetaken.
This can be practiced anywhere there is a bit of room and you will be suprised by how effective it is.
AS MENTIONED BEFORE THIS IS DONE WITH THE SAME AMOUNT OF POWER ON, DO NOT BACK OFF OR YOU CAN LOCK UP THE BACK AND CRASH!!!!!


The most important thing I think is you should set yourself up prior to each corner, this involves looking as far ahead as possible, checking road surface, adjust road speed (brake if needed), positioning body (shoulder,bum), loading peg, countersteering, accelerating out, (slow in fast out principal), and doing it again and again and again (cause we all love corners).

I hope this is an bit of help for some out there.

I dont advocate knee down (it takes the centre of gravity practice to a higher level) as you are far to committed to the line taken and can't adjust your line taken as easily. If you want to do that go do a take day and have a blast. It's not for the road.

Greg

 

very helpful

 

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it in here, Jules, but just to add to the body of knowledge:
If you use the rear brake in a corner, the bike is inclined to lean in further, but if you use the front, the bike will stand up more.(at least on my bike)
Steering with the throttle is something I do often to change my line, even on freeways.
I've never got into the 'weighting up the opposite footpeg' thing, as my bike's so heavy I don't think it'd matter much - maybe I'm wrong, but I find messing with my weight distribution seems to unsettle the bike.....
Also, I believe 'body steering' to be a waste of time. It's the counter steer which works best - had to use it yesterday when a guy did a partial U-turn in front of me - swerved, hit both brakes, and missed him. Road was wet, too, so things were interesting for about two nanoseconds.......
My 2c worth......

 

good read! i took a learn to ride course and thats where i got my license. they stressed the "look,press, and roll" while you turn. and set up a number of exercises for the class to do. very effective!

 

^^^

Yes, some teach counter steering as a push, pull or a "press" of the bars ... press or push the left bar to go left and press or push the right bar to go right ... I actually do my counter steering evenly, I apply an even reverse torque to both the bars ... just remember this is all a momentary input to the bars to get the bike reacting and into the desired lean, then you allow the bars to track with the bend until counter steering is again needed to right the bike back to upright :-)

Jules

 

I never noticed that I do that uncontiously. After reading it here I tried it out in a large parking lot at high and low speeds and saw what you were talking about. Thanks alot, I think I need to take the advanced MSF course now.

 

how about trail braking?