No offense Hardcorp but we will never finish what we started over there. The same way as if they came here to topple Bush and his crew. All of us would take up arms. Would we ever give up?? No! They'd have to kill all of us, non military folk too. Neither will they give up. They see us as invadersin their country. Do you think their media is telling them the truth of why we went there or why we are over there? Every man woman and child is thinking we are trying to take their country over probably.We need to get the **** outta there before we lose more Americans. Who the F cares what their gov't does to their own people or they do to each other. It's not our place to play policeman. America is the child on this globe. They have been around since the dawn of time. Our country is no where near its final stage of development, and since nobody knows which direction time will take us, we could wind up in ruins. They view us as the cancer. The land of excess and wasting of everything. Just think if we lost electricity. Or our transportation systems fail. No food, no water. lol. Talk about a nightmare. Watch how we become the barbarians this thread was started talking about.

 

Nauree is pro-isolationism.

 

Well no offense, but most assuredly your conclusions must be drawn upon from your years In the Diplomatic Corps. And if not, they most assuredly must be based on your personal experiences from working abroad, because by your own admission. You never served in the Armed Forces. So therefore we know you have no personal experiences to draw upon, which means it would have been impossible for you to graduate from any Military War Colleges and if these are not the cases. It absolutely must be your personal family ties to the region, because I would hate to think your opinions are based on belly up to the bar with the boys or what you have gathered from international news, CNN, Fox or the rest of this nations mass media outlets and surely it's not from the neighbors backyard BBQ last year. Who's close family relation is serving in Iraq your opinions must be based on more than the last part of this. I hope!

You know what's amazing? I would almost bet MacArthur heard the same things as he was given his position over Japan. I wonder how many Japanese would've given their left nut to assassinate him and kill as many American military as possible. It was a long hard struggle, but the Japanese people are far better off today than they were pre-World War II. Let's discuss momentarily the juvenile in the global society. Just paraphrasing here, but does the saying. " At some point, the student surpasses the master in all things" sound even remotely familiar. Here's something else for you to grind around in your brain. Granted, this is quite a bit more aid than the French were willing to give us when we were fighting for our independence. Yes, different circumstances, a different type of war, but all things being equal, if looked at in a broad spectrum. There is absolutely no difference other than we were willing to commit completely, and how do you suppose the French people in general viewed us at the time, sophisticated and civilized with with the right religious beliefs. I sincerely doubt it.

Now personal perspective. I have spent at least or more of a sum total of one third of my service abroad three trips to the region in which were discussing now have worked with hundreds of Iraqis who are willing to put themselves in great personal risk as well as their families to secure a free Iraq. So to say that they do not want us there is straight out Bull****. Why don't you get on a ****ing plane and round up some of Saddam's former prisoners. Those that are left alive and ask them if they are glad to see us and after that spend at least 12 more months in the region and take the time to read the Koran and understand its teachings because it is truly impossible to help someone you do not under

 

I must agree with Hardcorp ( good evening, Gunny) on this issue. My perspective is this :
As a soldier, you fight who you're told to - soldiers, don't start wars, politicians do....and it's up to the soldiers, young people for the most part, who have to live (and die) with the decisions over which they have no control.
I believe that specialised units should never be placed in roles for which they are not really equipped, like policing - these roles are for a different kind of soldier, no less important but with a different focus. I have been placed in a similar position, and it's not ideal. Paratroopers don't make good policemen.......
As for interrogations and the like, it's hard to lay blame on anyone for being "over-zealous"until you understand that the information you are able to elicit as an interrogator from prisoners may well save the lives of your own troops if you are able to get it in time.....I can assure you, information gathering by the other guys in this war is and was far more brutal and damaging than anything the coalition could dream up, and nobody's complaining about their methods.
I don't believe the US and coalition partners can leave yet - there is still much to be done, and no matter what happens, the politicians will decide the outcome....all a soldier can do is do his or her job, to the best of his or her ability, and trust their leaders to do what's right.
That is a soldiers lot in life.....
I have the greatest sympathy for all the soldiers in the field at this time, and in the future.
Speaking from personal experience, those who haven't been in a war, will never understand.......

 

You are correct in all of your assumptions of me Hardcorp. I mean no disrespect whatsoever to you or any other soldier. A few of my friends have recently served. I respect everything you guys do for the country and our freedom. The bottom line is that my initial post is the truth. Pulling out now would be a failure, but we should do it anyway. Or should we go at it another 5 years and still fail? With just more debt and more death. You guys remember Vietnam? I don't but I learned all about it in history class. Just because you have been there and your friends have died doesnt make it any better. In fact it makes it that much more worse for you. Nobody will die in vain just because we don't succeed. Thinking like that is horrible. Everybody who is willing to die for a cause willingly, dies with honor and was certainly brave. You have to remember, someone will win and someone will lose. Just because we are America the powerhouse doesnt mean we will win. Just like I said above, they will not giveup. The same way we wouldnt if they came on our turf. I'm not even gonna go back to the fact that we shouldnt even be over there to begin with. It's none of our damn business. No damn country is gonna help us when the **** hits the fan and we are gonna be wiped off the planet.

 

Well manofwar I do not have the time to respond fully to your last post. I have covered this subject with others who have had the very same viewpoint. Countless times, as a matter of fact with former members of this forum. I will return before 1800 and share my perspective on your last post.

I would also like to point out to the administrators and moderators. I did not bring the subject up first and I am diligently trying to stay within the boundaries on the subject

While were on the subject of Vietnam, though. I didn't have to learn about it from a ****ing history book. I am a fourth generation Marine whose father retired as a Lieutenant Colonel from the Marine Corps 2nd Marine Air Wing and flew three tours in Vietnam also have uncles who served on the ground and there is absolutely no similarities between Vietnam and the current war on terrorism. Not even in the broadest sense, Other than the ones drawn by the unknowing and politicians, which category do you fall into. Case and point 1. Vietnam engagement was filled with draftees for the most part.. The last time I checked, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. We have an all volunteer force, every individual in uniform who has enlisted since the beginning of theWARON TERRORISM had some concept of what was awaiting them if asked I will be happy to expand on those who didn't and for those who were already serving. It was time to quit training and do the real deal. I don't know where individuals such as yourself get the unmitigated gall to decide what is best. It simply amazes me. I suggest you become better informed, but I we'll return and enlighten you some more

 

I think you're both right--HC has been there and knows more about Muslims than any 10,000 Americans put together--but MV sees it from the perspective of (probably) the average citizen--which means his opinion about leaving carries the weight of a hundred million people. You both make completely valid case points, just from opposite sides of a very tall fence. There's no reason to throw rocks over the top...

Personally, I spent time in uniform, but it was exclusively for those who came before me--not out of obligation to the present populace. The ideals that so many people fought and died for are withering away under the United States of Apathy. Love it or leave it? I'd be thrilled to learn Dutch...

 

Yes with Putin still running the show in Russia Moscow is a fact that needs to be recognized, and yes Moscow's economy is seeing it's biggest surge in decades but if you go anywhere else in the country you'll see that the people are still poor and hungry.

 

We are in the middle of a holy war, we have trouble wrapping our arms around this concept, but as history has taught us, we are natural enemies with some Muslims.The way I understand it,non-Muslins are not even consideredhuman. So think of it this way, presently, we have military mightthrough economic strength. But that economic strength is waning, in turn our military will weaken and finally we will have enemies that can win in a war against us.

So you have two options, we either fight it on their soil today or on our soil in 40 years. I am not all that smart, but I know fighting a war on your own soil is bad. Think of these conflicts as a measure to 'prune' those that will become a problem. This problem will occur with china in the next 20 years, they will either team up with Russia to attack Europe and us or we will have to defend Siberia (and all that oil and strategic resources) against China.

Sometimes it is better to be a bully then to wait for your enemy to grow up.

 

You know, I was coming back to do my best to lay waste to this thread. But after spending about five hours riding for the first time in six months. I just have not got it in me, but there should be no walls or tall fences. Everyone needs to be on the same page, if not a house divided cannot stand. Fishfryer the only thing I can say is the Muslims. You are speaking of are the ones that believe in a twisted version of the Koran