Hopefully someone will answer and I know this is not a simple question by far...

So... I'm datalogging into.. and I want to know how far to advance the timing. Now I can do this by rpm/tps etc..

I've heard enough people say turn it up 2 or 4 degrees. If it pings, backoff. Eh.. now thanks. How's to say I can't get 8 degrees up without pinging. Well I might not ping, but I could do some engine damage. Also if I'm on the verge of pinging I'm probably actually losing power before it's advanced to far from TDC.

Is their any sensor(s) that will guide me to how far to advance for the best performance? Or am I stick w/ the turn it up till it pings that back off say 4 degrees (which you won't see me doing).

Even if I were to say read the IAT and MAP that's not telling me how much the OEM ECU has already advanced it. I could tell that from the Crank Sensor.. but again. How far to go? Also how much power has anyone truly achieved through F4i advance timing. I'm heard of some mid range gains.. but haven't heard anything about high end.

 

All I can give you is the OEM advancement is 13* BTDC And talk to the guys at factory pro, they do a lot of this kinda stuff.

Here's a link hope it helps sorry I cant do more.
Ignition Timing affect power - Data by 4 Gas EC997a Eddy Current Dynamometer

 

well I'm appreciative of whatever at this point.. Tons of info on the net.. but half the people have no clue what they're talking about. If it's a forum 2 posts in people start arguing over stuff like the octane to run. I might call innovate up and see if they have an opinion. But I've got some bad advise from them too.. I've found people in school for this on the net talking very high level info (which was great). Unfortunately they have tools and information that is way way beyond what the average person has.

 

Now keep in mind the following may not apply to bikes, as I have only messed with changing ignition on cars, but honestly, I never shoot for most I can advance/retard. I usually have to bite the bullet, and pay for dyno time. depending on how you are changing, ie. mechanical or electronic, then that usually depends how costly it can get. You have to keep in mind what exactly you are tuning for. If its quarter then obviously you will want the best upper rpm power, cause you will stay there consistently. If its road course, then you look at your average data from a circuit, see what range you stay in most often and then tune for specific power in that range. On the street, reliability and the whole range comes into play. All that said, I dont suggest going until pinging and backing off. You have no way of knowing where your sweet spot is. Say stock is 13 btdc, thats at idle. then during the rpm range, because the cylinders are firing faster, fuel and air is being introduced and evacuated fast the computer may bump it one or two degrees bringing total advance to 9 btdc lets just say. That is what the engineers tested for real world reliability and safety as far as warranty concerns and such go.
When tuning cars, I shoot for best power throughout the rpm range. That is usually achieved by trial and error. I take the base stock, and do a third gear pull down, that gives me my base power output. Then advance it 2-5 degrees and do another pull. If it improves throughout then Ill try again going 2 degrees. It may not ping, and I may be safe going more, but I look at the power under the curve. It has to be a consistent improvement all the way across the board. Does me no good to advance the timing 10 degrees, not ping, but still lose power until the last two thousand rpm of my range no matter how much I gain up there, because I'm not gonna be in that narrow a window the whole time.
Dont know if that helped or hurt or just confused you... Im having trouble getting thoughts out at the moment. As for doing it seat of pants, its going to be difficult unless you put it on a track. Timing is a touchy thing

 

I actually just called a place where someone strictly tunes motorcycles on a dyno. He sort of confirmed the same thing.. Without a dynotune I'll never know. As I change the timing and I'll be modifying the a/f. So again.. Now they'll vary it throughout the bands for max power using some analyzer I suppose. I'd love to know how they're figuring this out.. there must be some algorithm..

but he even commented that I might never ping.. but I'll lose power.. The price isn't bad.. just makes me angry that it can't be done w/ the info w/ vehicle outputs from sensors. Consider how the timing is adjusted as is.. take map,iat,rpm and determine how far to advance/retard. Someone figured this out.. and there's a very customized table to define that.

I considered what you're saying too.. Instead of paying $200 for a tune.. I could do say $50 for 3 runs using different maps. Since I can test on the street.. I'll already know it's not pinging and I can get understanding of what suits best and where.

Out of curiosity how much did you gain off just timing? I realize it probably varies as you stated.. just a general % idea. Trying to figure out if it's even jerking around w/

 

with supporting mods, heads intake exhaust cam... the number gain wasnt much like 2-5 overall, but the effeciency of the engine made a big difference in seat of the pants feel. I usually map out things to keep my a/f in a base, then here, it was 150 for an hour, unlimited pulls, and as you know, with the laptop hooked up already a reflash is super quick.

 

I'd guess the seat of the pants feel come from the power to weight ratio I would suppose. I suppose I'm trying to stay from dumping to much.. b/c If I go to far.. I'd be better off w/ a 1k cc sports bike. I'll probably do a dyno though and play w/ some settings only because I enjoy optimizing so much.