Air Flap Mod./ lose power?
#41
10-30-2007, 01:14 PM
RE: Air Flap Mod./ lose power?
Holy Fricking Crap.
Alright Listen Up.
The PAIR is a valve that takes filtered air from the airbox and redirects it to the exhaust to burn unburned carbon oxide molecules. The immediate question may be how it functions with no pump. This is the correct question to ask yourself and a good start toward not being fricking retarded. The PAIR only functions when there is positive pressure in the airbox compared to the pressure in the exhaust. When the throttle is closed quickly, air is trapped between the throttle body and the filters. The flow momentum briefly pressurizes this air and pushes some through to the exhaust which at this time requires air because the throttle body closes before the injectors can fully react so there is unburned fuel in the exhaust. This is what causes the “popping” sound when you let off the throttle. I actually like it, but that is beside the point.
Your comparison to an afterburner is dead on. One is a forced induction, direct ignition, turbine power plant and the other is the bike in my garage. COME ON! Think about how things work and what you are saying. The PAIR doesn’t even do anything when accelerating. It’s sole purpose is to keep the o-zone intact when you are decelerating. That’s why it doesn’t matter whether it is hooked up or not. Dyno’s have the O2 sensor in the exhaust of your bike, so it is disconnected to prevent any O2 readings from being influenced by it.
There is no power gain from having the PAIR on or off. It’s like taking off your heatshield. Maybe the exhaust gets colder and doesn’t flow air as well and robs me of my power and I get beat by a scooter. Or maybe the scooter just ate you up, noob. HAHA.
On to the Flapper that nobody knows how to search for.
The flapper is like a valve in that it allows air into the intake through two different sources. It has a variable function, meaning it is usually not closed or open, but somewhere in the middle. The first source is the center opening, which gets air from outside the engine compartment at ambient temperature. The second source is the two outer flaps, which get their air from inside the fairings. Why would they want hot air from inside the fairings? Another good question. I’ll tell you.
They get air from inside the fairings because the mean government doesn’t want bikes to be loud at certain cruising speeds and throttle settings. If all of the air came through the center flap, the bike would be too loud and have to go back to Japan. It’s nice and quiet inside the fairings so that’s where the outer flaps duct to and that allows the bike to get it’s citizenship and stay in the States. Only thing is that the outer ducts have stupid hot air in them and that sucks *****.
Honda hooked it up so that the outers close when the center is open and vice versa. Over 5500, the flap is open (center open) all the time thanks to the electric solenoid on it. Some of you idiots out there may wonder how power gains can be seen all the way to 7200 when the flaps are open in the stock setting anyway. Well, how long do you think it should take for the hot air to be fully consumed by the engine? I’d be willing to hear your ideas on how to do away with the whole fricking intake track so everything is instantaneous and you can understand it, but until then, that’s how it comes.
Oh, wait. You need to know how it works still. The power gains come from the colder air, nothing else. It’s just like putting a cold air system on a car that relocates the air source to a cooler area. The center flap stuck open all the time means that the ball-sucking hot air stays outside the motor, and the nice friendly cool air gets to come play with the gas a
Alright Listen Up.
The PAIR is a valve that takes filtered air from the airbox and redirects it to the exhaust to burn unburned carbon oxide molecules. The immediate question may be how it functions with no pump. This is the correct question to ask yourself and a good start toward not being fricking retarded. The PAIR only functions when there is positive pressure in the airbox compared to the pressure in the exhaust. When the throttle is closed quickly, air is trapped between the throttle body and the filters. The flow momentum briefly pressurizes this air and pushes some through to the exhaust which at this time requires air because the throttle body closes before the injectors can fully react so there is unburned fuel in the exhaust. This is what causes the “popping” sound when you let off the throttle. I actually like it, but that is beside the point.
Your comparison to an afterburner is dead on. One is a forced induction, direct ignition, turbine power plant and the other is the bike in my garage. COME ON! Think about how things work and what you are saying. The PAIR doesn’t even do anything when accelerating. It’s sole purpose is to keep the o-zone intact when you are decelerating. That’s why it doesn’t matter whether it is hooked up or not. Dyno’s have the O2 sensor in the exhaust of your bike, so it is disconnected to prevent any O2 readings from being influenced by it.
There is no power gain from having the PAIR on or off. It’s like taking off your heatshield. Maybe the exhaust gets colder and doesn’t flow air as well and robs me of my power and I get beat by a scooter. Or maybe the scooter just ate you up, noob. HAHA.
On to the Flapper that nobody knows how to search for.
The flapper is like a valve in that it allows air into the intake through two different sources. It has a variable function, meaning it is usually not closed or open, but somewhere in the middle. The first source is the center opening, which gets air from outside the engine compartment at ambient temperature. The second source is the two outer flaps, which get their air from inside the fairings. Why would they want hot air from inside the fairings? Another good question. I’ll tell you.
They get air from inside the fairings because the mean government doesn’t want bikes to be loud at certain cruising speeds and throttle settings. If all of the air came through the center flap, the bike would be too loud and have to go back to Japan. It’s nice and quiet inside the fairings so that’s where the outer flaps duct to and that allows the bike to get it’s citizenship and stay in the States. Only thing is that the outer ducts have stupid hot air in them and that sucks *****.
Honda hooked it up so that the outers close when the center is open and vice versa. Over 5500, the flap is open (center open) all the time thanks to the electric solenoid on it. Some of you idiots out there may wonder how power gains can be seen all the way to 7200 when the flaps are open in the stock setting anyway. Well, how long do you think it should take for the hot air to be fully consumed by the engine? I’d be willing to hear your ideas on how to do away with the whole fricking intake track so everything is instantaneous and you can understand it, but until then, that’s how it comes.
Oh, wait. You need to know how it works still. The power gains come from the colder air, nothing else. It’s just like putting a cold air system on a car that relocates the air source to a cooler area. The center flap stuck open all the time means that the ball-sucking hot air stays outside the motor, and the nice friendly cool air gets to come play with the gas a
#44
10-30-2007, 10:42 PM
RE: Air Flap Mod./ lose power?
ORIGINAL: Ty
...please stop just making stuff up and posting it on here.
...please stop just making stuff up and posting it on here.
Your commentary on the PAIR systemis a complete nightmare, almost none of it is true. ThePAIR systemdoes introduce air into the exhaust stream under acceleration,and it has nothing to do with keeping the"o-zone"layer intact. What makes the system work are pulsations in the exhaust system, pulsations that are present during acceleration. To get accurate AFR readings for dyno runs you have to disable the PAIR system. Why do you think that is?
The volume of the airbox is small, we don't need to "do away with the intake tract" to get a fast response. At 6000 RPM the engine will suck enough air to flush the airboxin about 1/6th of a second. Do the math. This notion that residual hot air is presentthrough 8000 RPM doesn't wash.
What if I were to take temperature readings in the airbox with and without the flapper enabled and find that there was no appreciable difference? Would it matterto anyone? Would I be called a liar?
I'm done with this thread. You can flame me, trash talk up a storm, and post all the techno gibberishyou want,but you won't get any more of my time. If further testing reveals some relevant facts in the ongoing flapper debate, I'll postthem in a new thread.
#45
10-31-2007, 07:45 AM
RE: Air Flap Mod./ lose power?
Why O Why does nobody listen. How in the hell does unplugging the vacuum line trick the flapper into staying open if it stays shut with zero vacuum? I'll answer that for you. The flapper stays closed when there IS vacuum, enabling the engine to be quieter at cruising speed and deceleration. It opens when there is no vacuum, like when you unplug the fricking vacuum line. No vacuum conditions would be when your throttle plates are open enough to allow air to flow freely without vacuum pressure, like when you are accelerating hard. See, when you are accelerating hard, the bike's noise doesn't matter anyway, so it opens. Kind of convenient, huh?
How are you going to try and call me out and say thatzero vacuum keeps the flapper shut when the fricking way to keep it open is to take away the vacuum? So what your saying is that everyone that has done the flapper mod has a closed center flap? Think about the things you are saying.
And your next dead-wrong point....You disable the PAIR for "constant speed" or "driving-style" dyno runs where your bike is being tested at different rpms for proper AF. It is common knowledge that you DO NOT need to disable the PAIR for WOT (wide open throttle) dyno runs because it cannot and does not function in that setting. It only affects constant speed runs because it is nearly impossible to not let off the throttle a bit every now and then which would cause the PAIR to operate. These things have been on cars and bikes since the 70s. They ARE NOT new technology nor have they any special function on this one particular bike.
Next, you are under the impression that the airbox clears of hot air in 1/6 of a second. That may be a little on the quick side because you have to remember that actual parts are 40 degrees hotter than they would be with the flapper fooled. (but you already stated that the flapper can't be fooled because it stays shut at zero vacuum, so this is irrelevant I guess?) Anyway, each gear will vary slightly because of it's ability to pull through the gear faster. In first gear, let's say, I can go from 0-60 in about three seconds. Let's say that 1.5 is getting going to about 5000 rpm and the other 1.5 is then my full throttle roll to redline, rounded to 12000 rpm. That would put the average time it takes to cover 1000 rpms at 1/5 of a second, and those numbers are not unreasonable seeing as how it's on a dyno and not on the street. Throw in some correction for rpm momentum and dyno resistance, and that sounds just about right. I would guess that it takes about a second or so at that airflow to clear the airbox air duct work entirely. That gives us more than enough time to justify the dyno readings, which there are plenty of on this subject.
Finally, if you were to take temperature readings in the airbox, you would not find them to be the same. The center duct goes to fresh air, and the outer ducts go to inside the fairings. There is no circumstance with a warmed up bike that these temperatures would ever be the same. You don't need a thermometer to tell you that.
Which brings me to my next point....STOP MAKING STUFF UP. Read what I'm writing. Or don't. Google some stuff. Get the Honda manual. Get the service specs. Whatever you do just stop making stuff up. If you don't know how something works, ask. That's what this forum is for. There are a lot of people that know the ins and outs of this bike around here that are more than happy to chat about bike stuff all day. So instead of trying to tell us bad information, just ask if you want to know how something works.
How are you going to try and call me out and say thatzero vacuum keeps the flapper shut when the fricking way to keep it open is to take away the vacuum? So what your saying is that everyone that has done the flapper mod has a closed center flap? Think about the things you are saying.
And your next dead-wrong point....You disable the PAIR for "constant speed" or "driving-style" dyno runs where your bike is being tested at different rpms for proper AF. It is common knowledge that you DO NOT need to disable the PAIR for WOT (wide open throttle) dyno runs because it cannot and does not function in that setting. It only affects constant speed runs because it is nearly impossible to not let off the throttle a bit every now and then which would cause the PAIR to operate. These things have been on cars and bikes since the 70s. They ARE NOT new technology nor have they any special function on this one particular bike.
Next, you are under the impression that the airbox clears of hot air in 1/6 of a second. That may be a little on the quick side because you have to remember that actual parts are 40 degrees hotter than they would be with the flapper fooled. (but you already stated that the flapper can't be fooled because it stays shut at zero vacuum, so this is irrelevant I guess?) Anyway, each gear will vary slightly because of it's ability to pull through the gear faster. In first gear, let's say, I can go from 0-60 in about three seconds. Let's say that 1.5 is getting going to about 5000 rpm and the other 1.5 is then my full throttle roll to redline, rounded to 12000 rpm. That would put the average time it takes to cover 1000 rpms at 1/5 of a second, and those numbers are not unreasonable seeing as how it's on a dyno and not on the street. Throw in some correction for rpm momentum and dyno resistance, and that sounds just about right. I would guess that it takes about a second or so at that airflow to clear the airbox air duct work entirely. That gives us more than enough time to justify the dyno readings, which there are plenty of on this subject.
Finally, if you were to take temperature readings in the airbox, you would not find them to be the same. The center duct goes to fresh air, and the outer ducts go to inside the fairings. There is no circumstance with a warmed up bike that these temperatures would ever be the same. You don't need a thermometer to tell you that.
Which brings me to my next point....STOP MAKING STUFF UP. Read what I'm writing. Or don't. Google some stuff. Get the Honda manual. Get the service specs. Whatever you do just stop making stuff up. If you don't know how something works, ask. That's what this forum is for. There are a lot of people that know the ins and outs of this bike around here that are more than happy to chat about bike stuff all day. So instead of trying to tell us bad information, just ask if you want to know how something works.
#47
10-31-2007, 10:24 AM
RE: Air Flap Mod./ lose power?
There are how-to's around here somewhere but look into the left side (sitting on it left) upper fairing opening and behind the radiator, right up at the top of the radiator will be a little valve with one vacuum hose coming out of it and one electrical connector. Carefully, because the valve can seperate, disconnect the vacuum hose from the valve. Plug the hose with proper hardware so the system doesn't lose vacuum. Leave the valve open to the atmosphere. Secure the hose somewhere (It's pretty long). Your Flapper is now permanently open. There are pictures on hooliganbiketech.net and a walk through I think.
#48
10-31-2007, 11:34 PM
RE: Air Flap Mod./ lose power?
ORIGINAL: Ty
Google some stuff. Get the Honda manual. Get the service specs. Whatever you do just stop making stuff up. If you don't know how something works, ask. That's what this forum is for. There are a lot of people that know the ins and outs of this bike around here that are more than happy to chat about bike stuff all day. So instead of trying to tell us bad information, just ask if you want to know how something works.
Google some stuff. Get the Honda manual. Get the service specs. Whatever you do just stop making stuff up. If you don't know how something works, ask. That's what this forum is for. There are a lot of people that know the ins and outs of this bike around here that are more than happy to chat about bike stuff all day. So instead of trying to tell us bad information, just ask if you want to know how something works.
#49
11-01-2007, 06:57 AM
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#50
11-01-2007, 03:34 PM
RE: Air Flap Mod./ lose power?
There are a few pieces to the entire flapper assembly and I wish I had pics but they are all over the place. There is a solenoid, a can, and a valve. I can't remember what the can does but it is there for a reason. The solenoid is there to keep the flapper open above 5500 rpm or so. The valve is what is actually connected to the flapper via an allen wrench looking part that comes out of the back side of it. If you remove the piece that you pulled the vacuum line off of, you will be looking into your intake at the front side of the center flap. The allen wrench looking piece pushes or pulls on the front edge of the flap to close or open it. There is also an electrical connection on the valve coming from the solenoid.
Above 5500 or so, the solenoid de-energizes the valve, which puts the valve into it's full open state. Below 5500 or so, the valve is energized by the solenoid and can then react to vacuum pressure. Under no vacuum (hose disconnected) the flap opens because it thinks your throttle plates are wide open. Under vacuum, the energized valve closes proportionately with the amount of vacuum. It is chambered so that it doesn't bounce back and forth so much but can open slightly under partial throttle application when vacuum is lessened but not zero. There is a spring (diaphragm)that acts on the flap control rod. When energized, the valve allows the engine vacuum to counteract the spring tension on the flap. Any time vacuum is high (low throttle or steady speed or deceleration) the vacuum can overcome the spring and shut the flap. Any time vacuum is low (hard throttle) the spring overcomes the vacuum and opens the flap. Whenever the vacuum level is moderate and within the range of the spring's tension, the flap will be somewhere in between open and closed.
Due to this operation of the valve, the hose can be disconnected thus the valve has no pressure to overcome the sprung open flap, or the connector can be removed, thus de-energizing the valve to it's sprung open state regardless of vacuum pressure. Knowing this, it is easy to see how a dyno run can be manipulated to show positive results. If the user is wide open on the dyno, the flap will be energized but open by lack of vacuum well before 5500 rpms. There would be very little positive result. However, if the user holds the bike at about 5000 rpm so that vacuum can partially or fully close the flap and introduce hot air, then goes to wide open, causing the flap to open by vacuum loss first, then byde-energizing, a more noticable power loss will occur. This "rigged" run can then be compared to an identical run with the flap tricked into being open to produce what would seem to be significant gains.
On the street, the "rigged" run is actually much more common than a wide open run which is why so many people claim to be able to feel the difference immediately. For example, if you decelerated behind some traffic below 5500 rpm and your flap closed fully due to the vacuum pressure, hot air would be quickly introduced into your intake system. When you then re-accelerate to pass, your flap will open but you will still have a hot-air flooded intake that has to be consumed by the motor before cool air can be introduced. By fooling the flap, that situation is avoided and the hot air is never introduced, allowing the motor to reach it's full potential. Under perfect "rigged" conditions, power gains could dramatically exceed what has been shown on a dyno.
Sorry about jumping down your throat a few posts ago. It wasn't so much what you said, but the whole thread was filled with bad info and I was kind of frustrated.
Above 5500 or so, the solenoid de-energizes the valve, which puts the valve into it's full open state. Below 5500 or so, the valve is energized by the solenoid and can then react to vacuum pressure. Under no vacuum (hose disconnected) the flap opens because it thinks your throttle plates are wide open. Under vacuum, the energized valve closes proportionately with the amount of vacuum. It is chambered so that it doesn't bounce back and forth so much but can open slightly under partial throttle application when vacuum is lessened but not zero. There is a spring (diaphragm)that acts on the flap control rod. When energized, the valve allows the engine vacuum to counteract the spring tension on the flap. Any time vacuum is high (low throttle or steady speed or deceleration) the vacuum can overcome the spring and shut the flap. Any time vacuum is low (hard throttle) the spring overcomes the vacuum and opens the flap. Whenever the vacuum level is moderate and within the range of the spring's tension, the flap will be somewhere in between open and closed.
Due to this operation of the valve, the hose can be disconnected thus the valve has no pressure to overcome the sprung open flap, or the connector can be removed, thus de-energizing the valve to it's sprung open state regardless of vacuum pressure. Knowing this, it is easy to see how a dyno run can be manipulated to show positive results. If the user is wide open on the dyno, the flap will be energized but open by lack of vacuum well before 5500 rpms. There would be very little positive result. However, if the user holds the bike at about 5000 rpm so that vacuum can partially or fully close the flap and introduce hot air, then goes to wide open, causing the flap to open by vacuum loss first, then byde-energizing, a more noticable power loss will occur. This "rigged" run can then be compared to an identical run with the flap tricked into being open to produce what would seem to be significant gains.
On the street, the "rigged" run is actually much more common than a wide open run which is why so many people claim to be able to feel the difference immediately. For example, if you decelerated behind some traffic below 5500 rpm and your flap closed fully due to the vacuum pressure, hot air would be quickly introduced into your intake system. When you then re-accelerate to pass, your flap will open but you will still have a hot-air flooded intake that has to be consumed by the motor before cool air can be introduced. By fooling the flap, that situation is avoided and the hot air is never introduced, allowing the motor to reach it's full potential. Under perfect "rigged" conditions, power gains could dramatically exceed what has been shown on a dyno.
Sorry about jumping down your throat a few posts ago. It wasn't so much what you said, but the whole thread was filled with bad info and I was kind of frustrated.