front wheel lock-up when downshifting ? pls help !
Party Animal, ROTM June 2014
Joined: Oct 2008
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I have no idea what they actually teach at current day MSF courses ...
But to just rip the clutch in and try to pull up is the sign of a rider that has very little skill ....and prolly should not be on the road yet ??
In any panic stop situation, it is a combination of rapid gear changing downwards and very heavy braking "primarily at the front" that is the best method ....always has been and always will be !!!
If any rider cannot perorm this basic task?? , they should still be in training !!!
If you try to free wheel (clutch in )and brake heavily at very high speed , you will come unstuck eventually ....
Don't know who told you that ? , but as I said , it is the thing a very inexperienced rider might do ?, but is nothing that a rider that is actually in control of there bike would EVER do !
..........
But to just rip the clutch in and try to pull up is the sign of a rider that has very little skill ....and prolly should not be on the road yet ??
In any panic stop situation, it is a combination of rapid gear changing downwards and very heavy braking "primarily at the front" that is the best method ....always has been and always will be !!!
If any rider cannot perorm this basic task?? , they should still be in training !!!
If you try to free wheel (clutch in )and brake heavily at very high speed , you will come unstuck eventually ....
Don't know who told you that ? , but as I said , it is the thing a very inexperienced rider might do ?, but is nothing that a rider that is actually in control of there bike would EVER do !
..........
I know what they are teaching in MSF courses...I am an instructor. We teach that when making an emergency stop, you pull in the clutch (and keep it in) while rapidly downshifting to 1st gear and braking with BOTH brakes. Doing this effectively takes practice. The rider needs to learn how hard they can brake without locking up either wheel.
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From: Cobourg, Ontario, Canada
Are you saying that in a panic stop you should heavily brake and engine brake as well? A combination of rapid gear changing downwards, are you letting out the clutch between downshifts?
I know what they are teaching in MSF courses...I am an instructor. We teach that when making an emergency stop, you pull in the clutch (and keep it in) while rapidly downshifting to 1st gear and braking with BOTH brakes. Doing this effectively takes practice. The rider needs to learn how hard they can brake without locking up either wheel.
I know what they are teaching in MSF courses...I am an instructor. We teach that when making an emergency stop, you pull in the clutch (and keep it in) while rapidly downshifting to 1st gear and braking with BOTH brakes. Doing this effectively takes practice. The rider needs to learn how hard they can brake without locking up either wheel.
as a track rider i know how difficult it is to blip the throttle down shift and brake at the same time. as a street rider this is just way too much to be expected to pull of when in an emergency.
I even wonder if u should be using the back brakes at all. On the track u don’t use the rear brakes at all until u become a very good rider. Most track riders will use front brakes only.
I find the back brake to be a tricky subject.
The harder u squeeze the front brakes the less effective the back brakes become. Especially on a sport bike, since the rear tire can easily leave the ground. But I think it is important for a street rider to use the rear brake as a daily tool, so he doesn’t forget to use it when needed. Personally I find myself mostly, using the rear brake when traction is limited, such as in gravel, downhill, or wet conditions.
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Are you saying that in a panic stop you should heavily brake and engine brake as well? A combination of rapid gear changing downwards, are you letting out the clutch between downshifts?
I know what they are teaching in MSF courses...I am an instructor. We teach that when making an emergency stop, you pull in the clutch (and keep it in) while rapidly downshifting to 1st gear and braking with BOTH brakes. Doing this effectively takes practice. The rider needs to learn how hard they can brake without locking up either wheel.
I know what they are teaching in MSF courses...I am an instructor. We teach that when making an emergency stop, you pull in the clutch (and keep it in) while rapidly downshifting to 1st gear and braking with BOTH brakes. Doing this effectively takes practice. The rider needs to learn how hard they can brake without locking up either wheel.
I would never free wheel at high speed without the engine speed and gears staying in sync with my speed ...
Ok , it may not be easy for a new rider to handle that method , but I personally feel that re teaching a dog a trick once he has learned how to do something potentially the wrong way , may not be a good idea ??
That is just my take on it and may not be right ? and having said that all you new guys listen to your teacher here and free wheel at 100mph while screwing the neck off your brakes in a panic....
om out :-)
take care
....
Last edited by CBRclassic; Sep 10, 2011 at 05:55 PM.
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Joined: Jul 2009
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From: Denver,Colorado
My 2 cents. This is some good stuff all around,some of it may be way over the head of the rider that posed the question, but still excellent reference.
What I would say is read HenryM's comments closely and without ego Dude. You are fixing to hurt yourself,and buy your mechanic a Mercedes in what will be paid in repair costs.
Your methods and "practicing panic stops" will result in an unexpected "stoppie". If you are a new rider you aint ready for that. Visit uTube for details.
90 to 30. Are you paying attention to your surroundings to have to brake like that? Yes the MSF does teach you to do that to pass the course, but not at 90 MPH !You're barley doing 20 to start. Understand that your bike is better than you are ! Think about relativity. 60 MPH =88 feet per second.One thousand one, brother, 88 feet.If you are doing that to make a curve your bike is obviously out of shape,suspension is overtaxed,tires are on the edge of traction if not over the edge,everything is wrong,wrong.
My advice learn your bike. Start slow,work your skills,ramp up slowly.Jumping off a start and having to come down from 90 miles an hour on the street says it all, you technique and thinking are incorrect.Even the pros are not making every curve at ninety even though they may average 170 around the track.Another thought , driver pulls to an intersection. Looks your way sees you but you are not close,they look the other way,all clear.You were way down the street when they looked your way. At 90,now you are right there ! yeah you need emergency stop procedure, but you shouldn't have.You are moving at over 120 feet per second.One thousand one.
Not dissing you Bro, just want to pass some wisdom to an over eager youngster..Much respect to the folks on this forum, best bike forum ever. Listen to 'em( and you ARE wearing your gear right? say yes :-)
What I would say is read HenryM's comments closely and without ego Dude. You are fixing to hurt yourself,and buy your mechanic a Mercedes in what will be paid in repair costs.
Your methods and "practicing panic stops" will result in an unexpected "stoppie". If you are a new rider you aint ready for that. Visit uTube for details.
90 to 30. Are you paying attention to your surroundings to have to brake like that? Yes the MSF does teach you to do that to pass the course, but not at 90 MPH !You're barley doing 20 to start. Understand that your bike is better than you are ! Think about relativity. 60 MPH =88 feet per second.One thousand one, brother, 88 feet.If you are doing that to make a curve your bike is obviously out of shape,suspension is overtaxed,tires are on the edge of traction if not over the edge,everything is wrong,wrong.
My advice learn your bike. Start slow,work your skills,ramp up slowly.Jumping off a start and having to come down from 90 miles an hour on the street says it all, you technique and thinking are incorrect.Even the pros are not making every curve at ninety even though they may average 170 around the track.Another thought , driver pulls to an intersection. Looks your way sees you but you are not close,they look the other way,all clear.You were way down the street when they looked your way. At 90,now you are right there ! yeah you need emergency stop procedure, but you shouldn't have.You are moving at over 120 feet per second.One thousand one.
Not dissing you Bro, just want to pass some wisdom to an over eager youngster..Much respect to the folks on this forum, best bike forum ever. Listen to 'em( and you ARE wearing your gear right? say yes :-)
Party Animal, ROTM June 2014
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 671
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I would imagine that in new rider school , that method prolly is the easiest for new rider to get a grasp on ... but absolutely yes! , I blip the gas , barely tweek the clutch to down shift at a rapid rate and brake supper heavily all at the same time ...
I would never free wheel at high speed without the engine speed and gears staying in sync with my speed ...
Ok , it may not be easy for a new rider to handle that method , but I personally feel that re teaching a dog a trick once he has learned how to do something potentially the wrong way , may not be a good idea ??
That is just my take on it and may not be right ? and having said that all you new guys listen to your teacher here and free wheel at 100mph while screwing the neck off your brakes in a panic....
om out :-)
take care
....
I would never free wheel at high speed without the engine speed and gears staying in sync with my speed ...
Ok , it may not be easy for a new rider to handle that method , but I personally feel that re teaching a dog a trick once he has learned how to do something potentially the wrong way , may not be a good idea ??
That is just my take on it and may not be right ? and having said that all you new guys listen to your teacher here and free wheel at 100mph while screwing the neck off your brakes in a panic....
om out :-)
take care
....
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,471
Likes: 4
From: West Philly, PA!
During my MSF courses, both BRC and ERC, during ebraking the only thing they demanded was you stop within a certain distance and be in 1st when you got there. They didn't really cover how to do it. So I had to figure it out myself 
Trying to juggle the front brake, rear brake, clutch and shifter while staring at the soccer-mom driven minivan is far too much in my opinion for a new rider. So I pulled in the clutch, kicked down to 1st and left the clutch pulled in while I concentrated on stopping (oh yeah, and remembering to put my feet down).
My personal opinion is I do not like engine braking in any emergency situation. The engine is best used to make the bike go, not stop. The situation may suddenly change, requiring you to go instead of stop. And the brakes offer far more control over stopping than the engine does. With experience, the rider will learn to downshift with the clutch in so that if he has to get moving suddenly he'll be in the correct gear to do so. And then its just a matter to letting out the clutch while rolling on the throttle.
But for a new rider whose going to stop the bike suddenly, getting the bike stopped is the priority IMO. So keeping it simple with the clutch pulled in and the bike downshifted to 1st lets them focus on working the brakes.
Trying to juggle the front brake, rear brake, clutch and shifter while staring at the soccer-mom driven minivan is far too much in my opinion for a new rider. So I pulled in the clutch, kicked down to 1st and left the clutch pulled in while I concentrated on stopping (oh yeah, and remembering to put my feet down).
My personal opinion is I do not like engine braking in any emergency situation. The engine is best used to make the bike go, not stop. The situation may suddenly change, requiring you to go instead of stop. And the brakes offer far more control over stopping than the engine does. With experience, the rider will learn to downshift with the clutch in so that if he has to get moving suddenly he'll be in the correct gear to do so. And then its just a matter to letting out the clutch while rolling on the throttle.
But for a new rider whose going to stop the bike suddenly, getting the bike stopped is the priority IMO. So keeping it simple with the clutch pulled in and the bike downshifted to 1st lets them focus on working the brakes.
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During my MSF courses, both BRC and ERC, during ebraking the only thing they demanded was you stop within a certain distance and be in 1st when you got there. They didn't really cover how to do it. So I had to figure it out myself
Trying to juggle the front brake, rear brake, clutch and shifter while staring at the soccer-mom driven minivan is far too much in my opinion for a new rider. So I pulled in the clutch, kicked down to 1st and left the clutch pulled in while I concentrated on stopping (oh yeah, and remembering to put my feet down).
My personal opinion is I do not like engine braking in any emergency situation. The engine is best used to make the bike go, not stop. The situation may suddenly change, requiring you to go instead of stop.
Trying to juggle the front brake, rear brake, clutch and shifter while staring at the soccer-mom driven minivan is far too much in my opinion for a new rider. So I pulled in the clutch, kicked down to 1st and left the clutch pulled in while I concentrated on stopping (oh yeah, and remembering to put my feet down).
My personal opinion is I do not like engine braking in any emergency situation. The engine is best used to make the bike go, not stop. The situation may suddenly change, requiring you to go instead of stop.
but ...
As for Kuros quote above ...(and om not picking on you Kuro ..)
This thread seems to be directed at a quite simple panic stop in a straight line ? I have heard no mention of in corners at all as yet ?
Assuming that panic stops, as they have been called here are something that occurs in more places than just in a straight line...
2 scenario's to which I would like the answer too myself from all the new age school trained guys ...
You are in the twisties flying along having a good time cranked over quite allot in a bend and for what ever reason you have to " panic stop "
Q/
are we suggesting that at high speed in a bend cranked over that we rip the clutch in and free wheel and brake like there is no tomorrow to save ourselves from hitting anything on the road that might cause us to have too panic stop ???
Q/
We are in the same situation as above and find ourselves over shooting a bend because we have been a bit too adventurous heading in to it!!..
We need to wipe off speed and get the bike to do things that it's mind was not intending to do as she ripped into the bend in the first place !!
( this is also quite a panic situation if you ask me )
Do we rip the clutch in and free wheel cranked over and brake heavily to slow , change orientation / direction or stop ??
BTW ....to answer these questions ...
I would love it if you guys would avoid telling the me the bloody obvious , that there is a difference between panic stop in these situations compared to straight line one's ... Darrrrrr!! lol
My point with these 2 scenario's is , if you train people to free wheel and brake like a crazzy man to slow or stop when panicked ??
What will they do in these situations?? , apart from again ( the obvious..LOL ) which allot of the time is stand the bike up !! and brake heavily ,which will lock them into a rapid trip off the road more than likely ...!!!
Or should people be trained fully to use what Kurro does not like at all it seems , engine braking .... and brakes and gears to maintain a solid grip on the road and keep the bike under control in ALL SITUATIONS in a panic ...
Or is high speed free wheeling under heavy brakes the current method of staying upright in all situations not just straight lines (I was joking ..lol ) ...??
I could have made this reply quite allot more detailed , but I though I would spare you guys the long version .....lolol
another BTW :
I am hoping not to win an argument here guys , ..that is irrelevant to me !!! , but I hope to broaden the scope of this thread to include a little more regarding heavy breaking in general .... because on the road , life ain't that simple as to only need to panic stop in a straight line ...
Like I said in another reply ....... once to teach a dog a trick one way , it is allot harder to un train them ...
cheers .. :-)
......
Last edited by CBRclassic; Sep 11, 2011 at 05:47 PM.
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I am aware that I am digressing from the original thread topic some what .
I am concerned that , the fact that we have got and do get soooo many new riders read the posts in this place , that keeping this discussion so tight in its original context , may not quite give the right information to guys that are not quite as experienced as others here ...
I personally feel that if you are trained to rip the clutch and free wheel under brakes when panicked , for any reason , that you will tend to do the same thing in other panic situations if it is not thumped into your head that there are more ways than one to keep under control and save yoursel from these situations in the real world on the road ... ...
Steve
...
I am concerned that , the fact that we have got and do get soooo many new riders read the posts in this place , that keeping this discussion so tight in its original context , may not quite give the right information to guys that are not quite as experienced as others here ...
I personally feel that if you are trained to rip the clutch and free wheel under brakes when panicked , for any reason , that you will tend to do the same thing in other panic situations if it is not thumped into your head that there are more ways than one to keep under control and save yoursel from these situations in the real world on the road ... ...
Steve
...
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Joined: Jul 2009
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From: West Philly, PA!
Mommy the mean Aussie is picking on me! 
Good point Steve. I thought that the discussion might need to be broken up a bit cause what works in one scenario isn't right for all scenarios. In the middle of a turn brakes aren't always a good idea. And I dont freewheel thru turns
I'd say my advice is for straight line stops, like when someone decides they can male the turn before the sport bike slams into them. To narrow it further, it really only applies when the decision to stop is made. Because stopping isn't the only option in that situation either
Good point Steve. I thought that the discussion might need to be broken up a bit cause what works in one scenario isn't right for all scenarios. In the middle of a turn brakes aren't always a good idea. And I dont freewheel thru turns
I'd say my advice is for straight line stops, like when someone decides they can male the turn before the sport bike slams into them. To narrow it further, it really only applies when the decision to stop is made. Because stopping isn't the only option in that situation either
Party Animal, ROTM June 2014
Joined: Oct 2008
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Ok. When braking in a corner, you only have so much traction available to brake. You can trade traction from cornering to braking by straightening the bike while slowing, adding more braking while taking away cornering. Or, you can straighten the bike and then do a quick stop...the second technique is taught in MSF courses. And yes, the quick stop is with the clutch pulled in and shifting down to first gear.