Patriotic stuff
#11
11-30-2009, 08:22 AM
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#12
11-30-2009, 09:27 AM
Senior Member
The reason why a lot of folks don't see the purpose or mission of the Iraqi war is that it isn't politically correct to say it.
The point of the Iraqi war was to remove a truly evil regime that abused its people and to replace it with a regime where everyone was free to live as they wished, which, before Sadam took over, was very progressive, western and capitalistic. Hopefully, with one overtly successful, happy and westernized (which also includes European culture) middle eastern country, the "movement" would spread. The college kids in Iran were pushing in that direction, and still are.
To many this just sounds like either meddling or a pipe dream. But if you really think that western culture is better to its people than the hard core Muslims are to theirs, then we truly are trying to help them. However, if you are a cultural relativist, and think that people who suffer in dictatorships must prefer that and should not be interfered with because they must have somehow chosen it, then I can see how you wouldn't think it was worth a fight.
It just seems to me that their kids ought to have the same opportunities in life as our kids. Not necessarily the same life, just the choice and safe and secure environment to make that choice.
One of the key points of difference is that we all say "freedom" like everyone wants it. Well, the culture we are dealing with over there thinks "freedom" is a bad thing. We don't get that. But that's why it is a cultural war. Our fundamental values are the opposite of a big chunk of those folks. But Iraq and Iran have both shown that if freedom of choice is "forced" on them, they like it a lot, and they want more of it. Just like us. Try it. You'll like it.
The problem is always the cost. It takes a lot of time for changes like this to occur. Look at Russia, they are still screwed and it's been 20 years, and that one didn't even require a hot war, as they did it on their own. They wanted Levis and Beatles records.
The point of the Iraqi war was to remove a truly evil regime that abused its people and to replace it with a regime where everyone was free to live as they wished, which, before Sadam took over, was very progressive, western and capitalistic. Hopefully, with one overtly successful, happy and westernized (which also includes European culture) middle eastern country, the "movement" would spread. The college kids in Iran were pushing in that direction, and still are.
To many this just sounds like either meddling or a pipe dream. But if you really think that western culture is better to its people than the hard core Muslims are to theirs, then we truly are trying to help them. However, if you are a cultural relativist, and think that people who suffer in dictatorships must prefer that and should not be interfered with because they must have somehow chosen it, then I can see how you wouldn't think it was worth a fight.
It just seems to me that their kids ought to have the same opportunities in life as our kids. Not necessarily the same life, just the choice and safe and secure environment to make that choice.
One of the key points of difference is that we all say "freedom" like everyone wants it. Well, the culture we are dealing with over there thinks "freedom" is a bad thing. We don't get that. But that's why it is a cultural war. Our fundamental values are the opposite of a big chunk of those folks. But Iraq and Iran have both shown that if freedom of choice is "forced" on them, they like it a lot, and they want more of it. Just like us. Try it. You'll like it.
The problem is always the cost. It takes a lot of time for changes like this to occur. Look at Russia, they are still screwed and it's been 20 years, and that one didn't even require a hot war, as they did it on their own. They wanted Levis and Beatles records.
#13
11-30-2009, 10:32 AM
I spose you can only try to understand that in near all aspects of life ..
...RIGHT and WRONG are purely a point of views and that protesters are allowed that point of view and freedom of action to protest in a way that they see to be right ...
Lets face it ... the fact that they are doing what they are doing freely and with the right to do so , means that you, all my friends in the military, are doing a great job .. rightly wrongly or otherwise ...
I also think that if you truely understand what your service stands for and behind , that you might want to show these people , as miss guided as they may seem at times , the respect for the freedom that you help maintain for them ...
...RIGHT and WRONG are purely a point of views and that protesters are allowed that point of view and freedom of action to protest in a way that they see to be right ...
Lets face it ... the fact that they are doing what they are doing freely and with the right to do so , means that you, all my friends in the military, are doing a great job .. rightly wrongly or otherwise ...
I also think that if you truely understand what your service stands for and behind , that you might want to show these people , as miss guided as they may seem at times , the respect for the freedom that you help maintain for them ...
Regardless of what you think of the war, I think it's important to seperate the participation of our troops and the decision of our government to conduct this war. In the end, the soldiers simply follow orders as they are and are there to serve and I most definitely appreciate that service.
On one hand, I think it's in pretty poor taste to protest at/near a base as anyone who thinks it out a little realizes that it's the big guys in washington who make those kinds of decisions and what they are doing is only going to affect the individual troops' morale (how would she have felt about people protesting her son's base when he was alive and serving??? I would guess it would have upset her deeply).
On the other hand, these people certainly have the right to speak their minds and, while I think the lady is bat-****e crazy, she certainly has the right to be an ignorant biatch. This soldier, imo, was out of line and should have left well enough alone. I understand his frustration but the bottom line is that you can't go around being upset at every fool, because you could fill up your entire life attending to the idiots you encounter. I'm very sorry he has to be subjected to this with all he does for his country, but someone has to be the bigger man and in this case it should have been him. It can seem quite thankless I'd imagine, but I hope he and all of our other soldiers realize that this lady is in the minority and most of us truly appreciate the sacrifice you soldiers make.
Thanks to all of you guys in uniform. Don't let ignorant people get to you, most of us very much appreciate your willing sacrifice.
#14
11-30-2009, 11:15 AM
Thats the point that most people miss. We are not over there to tell people what to do. We are there to give them the opportunity to live how they want to. Maybe the protestors should live like them for afew years and see how they like it.
#15
11-30-2009, 11:20 AM
The reason why a lot of folks don't see the purpose or mission of the Iraqi war is that it isn't politically correct to say it.
The point of the Iraqi war was to remove a truly evil regime that abused its people and to replace it with a regime where everyone was free to live as they wished, which, before Sadam took over, was very progressive, western and capitalistic. Hopefully, with one overtly successful, happy and westernized (which also includes European culture) middle eastern country, the "movement" would spread. The college kids in Iran were pushing in that direction, and still are.
The point of the Iraqi war was to remove a truly evil regime that abused its people and to replace it with a regime where everyone was free to live as they wished, which, before Sadam took over, was very progressive, western and capitalistic. Hopefully, with one overtly successful, happy and westernized (which also includes European culture) middle eastern country, the "movement" would spread. The college kids in Iran were pushing in that direction, and still are.
Our troops are asked for a lifetime commitment to achieve the goals of set forth them. I say its a lifetime commitment because their life may end in fulfilling the duties asked of them. It is our duty as citizens to make sure those goals are worthy and achievable.
To me, we have failed our duty. We, the citizens of the United States.
#16
11-30-2009, 04:01 PM
Guest
Posts: n/a
Food for thought regarding these protesters --
Ok ... I am going to attempt to put one thing in perspective that seems some how to get lost in this whole service people KIA thing , when compared with other everyday life deaths that happen while others are doing there jobs ...
Please do not take this the wrong way or get upset because that is not what I am trying to do by any means ...
I support the Military and feel for the families ....
I am not making light of the deaths in the service but I would love to see some perspective in relation to other aspects of life...
Question -
If loosing good people is something to protest about at all and deserves special attention ... I would like to know why do we hold service people in a special higher category?
Why do we not protest about the THOUSANDS of construction workers that go to work every year ( EVERY YEAR ! ) and wind up being killed doing there jobs/Duty ?
These people are doing there duty and creating our world and they get killed in vast numbers every year (way more than die in the service) and have been getting killed every year for as long as time has existed...
The rigger that risks his life willingly and winds up dead gets nearly nothing !!! and certainly no medal or protest in his honor ?
Special Note
Keep in mind the same seemingly strange logic that I hear quite often from service people, about lives being lost in a conflict that we should not be involved with does apply in the real world too ....
eg/ did we really need that high rise building at all?? did my brother really need to die for it ??
Why do we not protest about the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS!! killed on the roads EVERY YEAR ...
Mums dads and children!! die every day doing there Duty, driving to a job that may not be seen to be important or necessary by many ? , taking kids to school , shopping ect ect ...
I know most peeps in the service may seem to see being killed doing there duty in action as some how different ...but it is no dam different!! except that the military and there families seem to want extra special attention ?? to me that seems a bit unfair to what is the vast majority of deaths over all in our countries from people doing there jobs...
I feel for the protesters but bugger it , they suffered there lost while there loved one was doing a job , that they chose more than likely..
If the construction worker dies at work he or she barely gets a dam mention any where except for maybe a one line berevment in some back page of a news paper ...then he or she is forgotten about except for the immediate family and friends ..
My point here is to try to put some perspective into this whole issue of deaths while doing your particular duty ...and whether or not these protesters should be doing this AT ALL !! let alone blaming anyone for it ...
We loose many many more good people every day continuously doing way more things than in any war or military action...
Do you think that dieing in the service is in some way different than these other good people's deaths ?
Is the death of the rigger that died unnecessarily any less of importance , ? are you guys in the service more important or special ? , or are you just doing any more or less than performing your job? like everyone else ,
...and like in every thing else in life , you could be killed doing it ...
Having said all that , I remind you that I support the service people all the way , but the perspective of what is in this case the families of these service people killed in action , attempting to some how try to hold these deaths up higher than all the other good people we loose every day in other areas of life and will continue to loose every day way after these conflicts have passed .... seems a little imbalanced ?
Question -
Is all of this the case ? and is it right ?
Ok ... I am going to attempt to put one thing in perspective that seems some how to get lost in this whole service people KIA thing , when compared with other everyday life deaths that happen while others are doing there jobs ...
Please do not take this the wrong way or get upset because that is not what I am trying to do by any means ...
I support the Military and feel for the families ....
I am not making light of the deaths in the service but I would love to see some perspective in relation to other aspects of life...
Question -
If loosing good people is something to protest about at all and deserves special attention ... I would like to know why do we hold service people in a special higher category?
Why do we not protest about the THOUSANDS of construction workers that go to work every year ( EVERY YEAR ! ) and wind up being killed doing there jobs/Duty ?
These people are doing there duty and creating our world and they get killed in vast numbers every year (way more than die in the service) and have been getting killed every year for as long as time has existed...
The rigger that risks his life willingly and winds up dead gets nearly nothing !!! and certainly no medal or protest in his honor ?
Special Note
Keep in mind the same seemingly strange logic that I hear quite often from service people, about lives being lost in a conflict that we should not be involved with does apply in the real world too ....
eg/ did we really need that high rise building at all?? did my brother really need to die for it ??
Why do we not protest about the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS!! killed on the roads EVERY YEAR ...
Mums dads and children!! die every day doing there Duty, driving to a job that may not be seen to be important or necessary by many ? , taking kids to school , shopping ect ect ...
I know most peeps in the service may seem to see being killed doing there duty in action as some how different ...but it is no dam different!! except that the military and there families seem to want extra special attention ?? to me that seems a bit unfair to what is the vast majority of deaths over all in our countries from people doing there jobs...
I feel for the protesters but bugger it , they suffered there lost while there loved one was doing a job , that they chose more than likely..
If the construction worker dies at work he or she barely gets a dam mention any where except for maybe a one line berevment in some back page of a news paper ...then he or she is forgotten about except for the immediate family and friends ..
My point here is to try to put some perspective into this whole issue of deaths while doing your particular duty ...and whether or not these protesters should be doing this AT ALL !! let alone blaming anyone for it ...
We loose many many more good people every day continuously doing way more things than in any war or military action...
Do you think that dieing in the service is in some way different than these other good people's deaths ?
Is the death of the rigger that died unnecessarily any less of importance , ? are you guys in the service more important or special ? , or are you just doing any more or less than performing your job? like everyone else ,
...and like in every thing else in life , you could be killed doing it ...
Having said all that , I remind you that I support the service people all the way , but the perspective of what is in this case the families of these service people killed in action , attempting to some how try to hold these deaths up higher than all the other good people we loose every day in other areas of life and will continue to loose every day way after these conflicts have passed .... seems a little imbalanced ?
Question -
Is all of this the case ? and is it right ?
Last edited by CBRclassic; 11-30-2009 at 04:09 PM.
#17
11-30-2009, 06:57 PM
I'm coming from the perspective of one who used to be vehemently opposed to Bush's regime and the initial entry into Iraq, even when there was all that initial patriotic hype post-9/11. In the most ideal world, we wouldn't have a military and service people would be helping to build up our own infrastructure and only travelling the world in order to rebuild houses and dams.
I can understand that Saddam was a nutjob leader who tested biological weapons on his own citizens and performed great evils, but look at the timing and the timetables by which we went into war with Iraq. We didn't follow proper procedures, not only according to international agreements, but also according to our own constitution regarding the need to Congress' approval for declaring war and it was just a giant reaction based on false testimony and evidence. Saddam definitely deserved to get his, but it just seemed un-American to go in there the way we did (in so far as considering things like due-process and trying to hold mutual respect with the international community).
Anyways, back to the OPs point, I think if people just looked into the actual situation of it, everyone would support the troops. I don't know many military personnel, but of the few I know, none of them joined without good intentions. Fight for freedom, love of country, protecting our rights. Who can oppose people who go through so much grief to uphold such noble ideals? It just gets hazy once you look at the people who make the decisions and the mistakes made due to poor intelligence. Protestors like this are just wrapped up in their "campy" attitudes. A lot of the times they lose sight of their original intentions and despite what they tout as their trump cards, "freedom of speech" and "freedom of the press" they are willing to temporarily ignore these liberties when anyone goes up against them. Freedom of expression only applies if you're with their group. In a regular mindstate, maybe she wouldn't have been such a bitch, but let's face it, she had a mob behind her and that can do warped things to a person's behavior.
I can understand that Saddam was a nutjob leader who tested biological weapons on his own citizens and performed great evils, but look at the timing and the timetables by which we went into war with Iraq. We didn't follow proper procedures, not only according to international agreements, but also according to our own constitution regarding the need to Congress' approval for declaring war and it was just a giant reaction based on false testimony and evidence. Saddam definitely deserved to get his, but it just seemed un-American to go in there the way we did (in so far as considering things like due-process and trying to hold mutual respect with the international community).
Anyways, back to the OPs point, I think if people just looked into the actual situation of it, everyone would support the troops. I don't know many military personnel, but of the few I know, none of them joined without good intentions. Fight for freedom, love of country, protecting our rights. Who can oppose people who go through so much grief to uphold such noble ideals? It just gets hazy once you look at the people who make the decisions and the mistakes made due to poor intelligence. Protestors like this are just wrapped up in their "campy" attitudes. A lot of the times they lose sight of their original intentions and despite what they tout as their trump cards, "freedom of speech" and "freedom of the press" they are willing to temporarily ignore these liberties when anyone goes up against them. Freedom of expression only applies if you're with their group. In a regular mindstate, maybe she wouldn't have been such a bitch, but let's face it, she had a mob behind her and that can do warped things to a person's behavior.
#18
11-30-2009, 08:17 PM
well raylee, if u want to look at being there like that, then we shouldnt have been in WW2 either. more or less the same idea there. granted theres probably underlying things that none of us know about that could be reasons for us to be there. You just have to accept that as long as there are evil people doing evil things in this world, we will always have a military.
And i believe most people think service men are more special because we are doing all the dirty work that noone else wants to know about or think about. granted the construction worker is providing a service, but his only thought is how much money am i making today, not "i wonder how many people i am helping by building this building"
as a side note its nice to see a bike forum having an interesting conversation like this and stay civil. kudos.
And i believe most people think service men are more special because we are doing all the dirty work that noone else wants to know about or think about. granted the construction worker is providing a service, but his only thought is how much money am i making today, not "i wonder how many people i am helping by building this building"
as a side note its nice to see a bike forum having an interesting conversation like this and stay civil. kudos.
#19
11-30-2009, 11:18 PM
Senior Member
Sorry, not good enough in my book. Don't get me wrong. That is a noble goal. But not one defined clearly enough to send our troops into harm's way because it leaves them in danger for an undetermined amount of time. Technically, its over. Sadaam dead, regime changed. Realistically, we might be there for another decade (or more) just making sure it doesn't fall apart the minute our troops get on the plane.
Our troops are asked for a lifetime commitment to achieve the goals of set forth them. I say its a lifetime commitment because their life may end in fulfilling the duties asked of them. It is our duty as citizens to make sure those goals are worthy and achievable.
Our troops are asked for a lifetime commitment to achieve the goals of set forth them. I say its a lifetime commitment because their life may end in fulfilling the duties asked of them. It is our duty as citizens to make sure those goals are worthy and achievable.
#20
11-30-2009, 11:33 PM
Senior Member
And to add to Classic's point, whenever we start taking casualties in any conflict, the cry from about half of America is "Let's get out now!".
So should we quit driving cars, and building things and drilling for oil and gas? Just stop every activity with any significant death toll?
You guys ride motorcycles for goodness sake! You assume the risk of death every time you get on it. And that is only to have some fun or a few thrills. These men and women of the military are honorable and brave volunteers. For the most part, they know the risk and they voluntarily take that risk to police our world and support the virtues of our way of life. They are no more victims than any of those who die for entertainment, but for a far, far worthier cause.
I remember hearing a statistic quoted when the first casualties occurred. That number of annual accidental military deaths in peace time will stagger you. Does anyone recall that number? I seem to recall that the initial stages of the conflict was over and we hadn't yet reached the peace time death rate yet.
So should we quit driving cars, and building things and drilling for oil and gas? Just stop every activity with any significant death toll?
You guys ride motorcycles for goodness sake! You assume the risk of death every time you get on it. And that is only to have some fun or a few thrills. These men and women of the military are honorable and brave volunteers. For the most part, they know the risk and they voluntarily take that risk to police our world and support the virtues of our way of life. They are no more victims than any of those who die for entertainment, but for a far, far worthier cause.
I remember hearing a statistic quoted when the first casualties occurred. That number of annual accidental military deaths in peace time will stagger you. Does anyone recall that number? I seem to recall that the initial stages of the conflict was over and we hadn't yet reached the peace time death rate yet.