power commander and performance
#31
04-16-2008, 11:42 AM
RE: power commander and performance
ORIGINAL: Tahoe SC
stock is good enough for show and tell...if you want to run with the fast guys...you'll need more than just stock...
stock is good enough for show and tell...if you want to run with the fast guys...you'll need more than just stock...
#32
04-16-2008, 12:24 PM
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RE: power commander and performance
ORIGINAL: Sonomajay
Wow, just wow. Ya'll must be getting your PC's at Harry Potter's Magic Tune. A newish rider on his first bike should not be led to believe that a Power Commander is an important mod. There are plenty of better ways to drop 3 bills, like better safety gear, a track day, suspension work, a safety class, new tires, even Angel Eyes or a slip on, at least people know you're sporting those. PC's break sometimes, and without a tune, you're apt to download some herky-jerky, back-firing, plug fouling abomination of a map. Or you can use your ***-dyno and burn 100 gallons of gas and a set of tires "maybe" getting a decent set-up thru trial and error.
There's some misperceptions about emissions testing here, the bikes are tested from low RPM to high RPM, the emissions are collected across the band. They are not tuned for a particular speed or RPM. Besides, I dont mind emissions laws, I like ozones, oxygen and the baby polar bears. In my state they are sometimes very serious about enforcing these laws and standard PC is already illegal.
I'm a medium fast track rider, I spent almost 4k on stuff before I bothered doing anything to change the power, a stock F4i has enough power to run a very few seconds off the 600 superstock record at any track. And where else beside the track is that 2HP increase you get with a slipon and a PC even relevant?
Disagree? Post up some dynos showing these magic maps that improve performance AND mileage. Are you a Miracle tuner? This aint a 350 Chevy. Cams, heads, cranks, velocity stacks, and other exotica are very hard or impossible to find. Most of us will be stuck with an air filter change, exhaust mods and maybe an ignition advancer. Then a Power commander starts to make sense.
New riders, "Power Commander" is an impressive sounding piece of equipment that provides barely perceptible improvements to a stock f4i. Mainly it allows you to reap the benefits of a $1000 exhaust modification.
.
Wow, just wow. Ya'll must be getting your PC's at Harry Potter's Magic Tune. A newish rider on his first bike should not be led to believe that a Power Commander is an important mod. There are plenty of better ways to drop 3 bills, like better safety gear, a track day, suspension work, a safety class, new tires, even Angel Eyes or a slip on, at least people know you're sporting those. PC's break sometimes, and without a tune, you're apt to download some herky-jerky, back-firing, plug fouling abomination of a map. Or you can use your ***-dyno and burn 100 gallons of gas and a set of tires "maybe" getting a decent set-up thru trial and error.
There's some misperceptions about emissions testing here, the bikes are tested from low RPM to high RPM, the emissions are collected across the band. They are not tuned for a particular speed or RPM. Besides, I dont mind emissions laws, I like ozones, oxygen and the baby polar bears. In my state they are sometimes very serious about enforcing these laws and standard PC is already illegal.
I'm a medium fast track rider, I spent almost 4k on stuff before I bothered doing anything to change the power, a stock F4i has enough power to run a very few seconds off the 600 superstock record at any track. And where else beside the track is that 2HP increase you get with a slipon and a PC even relevant?
Disagree? Post up some dynos showing these magic maps that improve performance AND mileage. Are you a Miracle tuner? This aint a 350 Chevy. Cams, heads, cranks, velocity stacks, and other exotica are very hard or impossible to find. Most of us will be stuck with an air filter change, exhaust mods and maybe an ignition advancer. Then a Power commander starts to make sense.
New riders, "Power Commander" is an impressive sounding piece of equipment that provides barely perceptible improvements to a stock f4i. Mainly it allows you to reap the benefits of a $1000 exhaust modification.
.
At WOT the f4i is just as good as any other bike but below 6k its throttle repsonse is notchy.SOme notice it ,some dont for those that DO notice it the pc will help that.
The only time a pc will effect gas mileage a lot is when a tuner has you take out the o2 sensor and leave it out.THAT is what effects the gas mileage the most.ME i had mine tuned without the o2 then reinstalled it after the tune.Works great .
Last emissions .They only matter below 6k rpm,thats what the engineers and states designed it for.Dont think so? THat is why the "emission legal" pc's can not be tuned below that threshold.
We can argue the point all day long.Engineers do things to keep their jobs and whats best for the overall group .The f4i had a basic gen1 efi setup.They learned a lot about injection on bikes over the years and thats why all the newer models are even better straight from the factory.
#33
04-16-2008, 03:16 PM
RE: power commander and performance
Well, fair enough, you have a tuned PC and you're happy. I'm happy with my tuned PC and exhaust mods too. My issue is that by itself, there is little benefit, and best results are obtained with a $250+ tune and at least a slip-on or more. And thats more than $159.
In this article http://www.motorcycledaily.com/16may...ratrioval.html, and the 2 dyno links it contains, the stock F4i has a noticeable flatspot at 4500 to 5500 RPMs, but just replacing the stock pipe with a slip0n opens that way up, almost as much as adding the custom Yosh ignition map. Ok, the bike was a Cali model and this was not a PC but a proprietary Yosh ignition controller. But still, a PC is best utilized as part of complete overhaul of the intake and exhaust systems, a buyer should know that going in.
You are absolutely correct about emission controls emasculating the bikes in the lower range, every bike I've ridden is the same, and they all run like frickin DEMONS with a downshift or two. Its less noticeable on a twin or a bigbore like a Speed Triple, and maybe thats why some people like them more than 600s.
Politics is even more contentious than engineering, but I'm fine with emissions control on the street, I'll do my part for global warming and contributing to the end of life on Earth on a closed course.
In this article http://www.motorcycledaily.com/16may...ratrioval.html, and the 2 dyno links it contains, the stock F4i has a noticeable flatspot at 4500 to 5500 RPMs, but just replacing the stock pipe with a slip0n opens that way up, almost as much as adding the custom Yosh ignition map. Ok, the bike was a Cali model and this was not a PC but a proprietary Yosh ignition controller. But still, a PC is best utilized as part of complete overhaul of the intake and exhaust systems, a buyer should know that going in.
You are absolutely correct about emission controls emasculating the bikes in the lower range, every bike I've ridden is the same, and they all run like frickin DEMONS with a downshift or two. Its less noticeable on a twin or a bigbore like a Speed Triple, and maybe thats why some people like them more than 600s.
Politics is even more contentious than engineering, but I'm fine with emissions control on the street, I'll do my part for global warming and contributing to the end of life on Earth on a closed course.
#34
04-16-2008, 04:00 PM
RE: power commander and performance
Say what you want I put a d&d pipe and a K&N filter and my bike was lean enough to cause it to lunge or buck (which ever you prefer to call it) when trying to hold a steady rpm.I purchased the PCIII and it solved the problem.As for popping my bike never did that.
#35
04-16-2008, 08:29 PM
RE: power commander and performance
ORIGINAL: Freewheelin
Say what you want I put a d&d pipe and a K&N filter and my bike was lean enough to cause it to lunge or buck (which ever you prefer to call it) when trying to hold a steady rpm.I purchased the PCIII and it solved the problem.As for popping my bike never did that.
Say what you want I put a d&d pipe and a K&N filter and my bike was lean enough to cause it to lunge or buck (which ever you prefer to call it) when trying to hold a steady rpm.I purchased the PCIII and it solved the problem.As for popping my bike never did that.
#36
12-04-2008, 08:14 AM
RE: power commander and performance
My 03 F4i had a Two bros system and a KN filter when I bought it. After replacing the FPR, spark plugs, oil change, and a few other small maintenence issues, she ran great and got 37 mpg. However, she still did some bucking at low rpm cruising and didn't have the roll-on power i thought it should.
$150 PCIII usb from Ebay, a downloaded map from PC website, and it is a totally different bike. I now get 40+ mpg, can cruise in and out of the neighborhood at 2k rpm smoothly, cruise 6th gear through the city smoothly, and roll-on acceleration is great.
The only issue I have now is the WOT performance. I have noticed that if i pin it in 6th gear, at say 70 mph, it pulls hard, but if i let off the throttle a bit, maybe 10% or so, it pulls much, much harder. Sounds to me like it is a little rich at WOT, right?
Since the map I am using is for a Two Bros slip on, and I have a full system...
I did some comparisons of different PC downloadable maps to see which map does what at 100% throttle, and copied the 100% throttle column from a Akrapovic full system map because it leans the mixture out a bit a the rpm range I was using at above mentioned gear and speed. I havent had a chance to test it out as it was pretty cold here this morning but I will. When ever i figure out this WOT issue, I will be perfectly happy with the bike, all thanks to thePCIII.
I have had this problem with every vehicle I have ever owned:
It is either stock, or never finished....
$150 PCIII usb from Ebay, a downloaded map from PC website, and it is a totally different bike. I now get 40+ mpg, can cruise in and out of the neighborhood at 2k rpm smoothly, cruise 6th gear through the city smoothly, and roll-on acceleration is great.
The only issue I have now is the WOT performance. I have noticed that if i pin it in 6th gear, at say 70 mph, it pulls hard, but if i let off the throttle a bit, maybe 10% or so, it pulls much, much harder. Sounds to me like it is a little rich at WOT, right?
Since the map I am using is for a Two Bros slip on, and I have a full system...
I did some comparisons of different PC downloadable maps to see which map does what at 100% throttle, and copied the 100% throttle column from a Akrapovic full system map because it leans the mixture out a bit a the rpm range I was using at above mentioned gear and speed. I havent had a chance to test it out as it was pretty cold here this morning but I will. When ever i figure out this WOT issue, I will be perfectly happy with the bike, all thanks to thePCIII.
I have had this problem with every vehicle I have ever owned:
It is either stock, or never finished....
#37
12-04-2008, 08:39 AM
RE: power commander and performance
OK, different bike (06 600RR) but same theory. I had a Yosh slip-on and BMC air filter with a PCIII. I tried various downloaded maps and they were OK but after tweaking them I took the bike into Mach1 for a real tune. A full day and a tank and a half of gas later here's the result. That's a huge gain and VERY noticiable difference. i don't care how good you think you have the downloaded maps tweaked you CAN NOT equal what a run on the dyno will give you.
#38
12-05-2008, 08:42 AM
RE: power commander and performance
I understand that every custom tune is going to be different on every bike, mostly because every tuner does things a little different. If two of us had identical bikes, and one of us had a custom map, shouldn't that map be pretty accurate for the other bike?
I have done some fuel maps for fuel injected cars, and for two cars with similar mods, the same map worked perfectly fine in both.
I have done some fuel maps for fuel injected cars, and for two cars with similar mods, the same map worked perfectly fine in both.
#39
12-05-2008, 08:52 AM
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RE: power commander and performance
ORIGINAL: wwarnke
I understand that every custom tune is going to be different on every bike, mostly because every tuner does things a little different. If two of us had identical bikes, and one of us had a custom map, shouldn't that map be pretty accurate for the other bike?
I have done some fuel maps for fuel injected cars, and for two cars with similar mods, the same map worked perfectly fine in both.
I understand that every custom tune is going to be different on every bike, mostly because every tuner does things a little different. If two of us had identical bikes, and one of us had a custom map, shouldn't that map be pretty accurate for the other bike?
I have done some fuel maps for fuel injected cars, and for two cars with similar mods, the same map worked perfectly fine in both.
The above dyno i posted on mine.Is using a CUSTOM map off a friends f4i ,installed in mine.It ran good.But custom tuning my own bike showed a improvement over a CUSTOM tunemade on a simliar f4i .
#40
12-05-2008, 01:50 PM
RE: power commander and performance
How big a difference are we talking? How much better did it run using his custom map vs. a downloaded map? I am not looking for every last ounce of power, just a good solid running machine.
I am happy with every part of the downloaded tune except for the WOT column. I don't think I should be able to back off of WOT and feel it pull harder.
I copied the WOT column from a Akrapovic full system map into my Two Bros slip on map and it feels better at WOT but still feels stronger at less than WOT.
I am happy with every part of the downloaded tune except for the WOT column. I don't think I should be able to back off of WOT and feel it pull harder.
I copied the WOT column from a Akrapovic full system map into my Two Bros slip on map and it feels better at WOT but still feels stronger at less than WOT.