New member intro, and engine rebuild questions
#1
10-07-2009, 09:47 AM
Join Date: Oct 2009
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New member intro, and engine rebuild questions
Hello all,
I'm new to the forum and just wanted to introduce myself. Just last night I bought a CBR 600 F2 after watching Craigslist nearly all summer. The "perfect" bike came online that matched all my requirements, so I bought it on the spot. I wanted something that was cosmetically clean but needed some engine work to bring down the price and give myself a good winter project.
So right now the bike is complete and together, except the engine, air box, and carbs are removed. The engine has been disassembled to a point. The head is removed (so the cam chain accessories, too) and the head cover. The stock CCT is in a plastic baggy. I don't really know the state of the engine. You would roughly describe the engine situation as a "basket case." Only when I get it together will I know its true condition. A thorough visual inspection couldn't find anything obviously wrong, though, and all fasteners are there and pretty clearly marked. But because I really don't know the engine's condition, I would like to minimize the amount of money I sink into it. I'd rather buy a new engine, if need be. So initially, I plan to cut a few corners and re-use parts, because they probably won't be "make or break" for the engine's running. If the bike runs well and doesn't need significant work, then great, I'll replace those parts. So in the meantime before I get working on reassembly, I have a few questions that you engine-building pros can weigh in on.
1) the CCT: it's the stock Honda one. Perhaps later I can buy a nice APE one, but for now the stock one will suffice. I squeezed it by hand and it was very easy to compress. If I were forced to guess, perhaps less than 5 lbs of force were needed to compress it. Is this healthy? (My Mitsubishi Eclipse tensioner needed a vise to compress). I've read the tutorial on priming the CCT with fresh oil and then reinstalling. Will I need to do this? If so, it wasn't clear to me how you keep the oil in the cylinder. Is that what the metal gasket is for, or is there a little drain screw or something?
2) Assembly grease. I've read quite a bit about assembling engines, but I've never done it myself. One of the tasks involved will be to bolt down the aluminum camshaft journals to squeeze the camshaft and valves into place. Obviously I need to lube the journals and cams before bolting it all together, correct? What I read was that I should mix 50/50 engine oil and assembly grease. Should I be coating just the camshaft journals, or the cams as well?
3a) The head gasket. I know protocol is to replace a head gasket any time it comes off. Well, like I said I don't want to sink extra money into an engine I don't necessarily trust. Instead of buying a new one (~$80), I was thinking I would use aerosol permatic sealand on both sides of the original head gasket, and reinstall. For short term use, is this a very bad thing to do? (by short term, I mean: as long as it takes to reassemble the engine and check compression and see if the block has any potential.)
3b) The entire head gasket appeared black and rubbery -- like any other gasket I've seen. But, a friend tells me that head gaskets are almost always metal. Is it possible that this head gasket has been coated with some kind of sealant, or is this the way the head gaskets always are?
4) When I got to the bike, the fan had been direct wired to the ignition so that it would turn on whenever the key was on. Is this a common thing to do? My hypothesis is that possibly the coolant temp sensor had failed so the PO just kept the fan running all the time. Does anyone have thoughts/suggestions on testing or repairing the sensor or fan? I'm not sure where the fan wire originally would have plugged in. The ground is just anchored to the frame.
5) Cam chain guides. Because I didn't see the engine before it was taken apart, these two parts baffle me. I'm pretty sure the black one is the tensioner guide. It pivots at a point in the head, and the tensioner applies force to the plastic. The plastic then squeezes the chain, creating tension, correct? But what is the purpose of the brown plastic chain guide?? Clearly it goes opposite the black one, but does it pivot as well, or just bolt in place? If it just bolts in place, then I suppose it's there only to keep the chain from flapping around too much?
Thanks for your help guys! I'm looking forward to a good project, and hopefully this rebuild won't last for more than a few weeks (although making it run could last far longer than that!)
I'm new to the forum and just wanted to introduce myself. Just last night I bought a CBR 600 F2 after watching Craigslist nearly all summer. The "perfect" bike came online that matched all my requirements, so I bought it on the spot. I wanted something that was cosmetically clean but needed some engine work to bring down the price and give myself a good winter project.
So right now the bike is complete and together, except the engine, air box, and carbs are removed. The engine has been disassembled to a point. The head is removed (so the cam chain accessories, too) and the head cover. The stock CCT is in a plastic baggy. I don't really know the state of the engine. You would roughly describe the engine situation as a "basket case." Only when I get it together will I know its true condition. A thorough visual inspection couldn't find anything obviously wrong, though, and all fasteners are there and pretty clearly marked. But because I really don't know the engine's condition, I would like to minimize the amount of money I sink into it. I'd rather buy a new engine, if need be. So initially, I plan to cut a few corners and re-use parts, because they probably won't be "make or break" for the engine's running. If the bike runs well and doesn't need significant work, then great, I'll replace those parts. So in the meantime before I get working on reassembly, I have a few questions that you engine-building pros can weigh in on.
1) the CCT: it's the stock Honda one. Perhaps later I can buy a nice APE one, but for now the stock one will suffice. I squeezed it by hand and it was very easy to compress. If I were forced to guess, perhaps less than 5 lbs of force were needed to compress it. Is this healthy? (My Mitsubishi Eclipse tensioner needed a vise to compress). I've read the tutorial on priming the CCT with fresh oil and then reinstalling. Will I need to do this? If so, it wasn't clear to me how you keep the oil in the cylinder. Is that what the metal gasket is for, or is there a little drain screw or something?
2) Assembly grease. I've read quite a bit about assembling engines, but I've never done it myself. One of the tasks involved will be to bolt down the aluminum camshaft journals to squeeze the camshaft and valves into place. Obviously I need to lube the journals and cams before bolting it all together, correct? What I read was that I should mix 50/50 engine oil and assembly grease. Should I be coating just the camshaft journals, or the cams as well?
3a) The head gasket. I know protocol is to replace a head gasket any time it comes off. Well, like I said I don't want to sink extra money into an engine I don't necessarily trust. Instead of buying a new one (~$80), I was thinking I would use aerosol permatic sealand on both sides of the original head gasket, and reinstall. For short term use, is this a very bad thing to do? (by short term, I mean: as long as it takes to reassemble the engine and check compression and see if the block has any potential.)
3b) The entire head gasket appeared black and rubbery -- like any other gasket I've seen. But, a friend tells me that head gaskets are almost always metal. Is it possible that this head gasket has been coated with some kind of sealant, or is this the way the head gaskets always are?
4) When I got to the bike, the fan had been direct wired to the ignition so that it would turn on whenever the key was on. Is this a common thing to do? My hypothesis is that possibly the coolant temp sensor had failed so the PO just kept the fan running all the time. Does anyone have thoughts/suggestions on testing or repairing the sensor or fan? I'm not sure where the fan wire originally would have plugged in. The ground is just anchored to the frame.
5) Cam chain guides. Because I didn't see the engine before it was taken apart, these two parts baffle me. I'm pretty sure the black one is the tensioner guide. It pivots at a point in the head, and the tensioner applies force to the plastic. The plastic then squeezes the chain, creating tension, correct? But what is the purpose of the brown plastic chain guide?? Clearly it goes opposite the black one, but does it pivot as well, or just bolt in place? If it just bolts in place, then I suppose it's there only to keep the chain from flapping around too much?
Thanks for your help guys! I'm looking forward to a good project, and hopefully this rebuild won't last for more than a few weeks (although making it run could last far longer than that!)
#2
10-07-2009, 01:53 PM
1.) I have met my end with my Honda CCT. Multiple folks on here have had almost immediate issues with new Honda CCT's. APE is on the way to me. I thought the same thing about the stocker, but apparently they just suck royally. I primed mine (sink it in a bath of oil and "pump it up", then install) and it rattles like a sonofagun. We'll see where this APE manual CCT gets me.
2.) Yes. Lube camshaft journals with assembly lube. I also turned the engine over with the spark plugs out of it when I fininshed putting it together until I could visibly certify that oil was being pumped into the cam journals and out of the cams onto the valve buckets. That made me feel much better about firing it up after being apart. I just dumped oil onto each cam lobe and rotated the motor until it began to self-lubricate.
3.)I donno if I'd try to sketch by with an old head gasket. I would say that re-using a gasket like that would get you into trouble by maybe leaking and screwing up otherwise valid/good compression readings.
3.) any powersports head gasket I've ever dealt with (many) has been of the rubber coated metal construction, like you describe.
4.) On the stock radiator, there's a bung that a sender for the fan screws into. I believe it's just a switch. Hot=on, not=off. The sender on the thermostat housing on the right side of the head is responsible for the temp needle on your instrumet cluster. I don't know why people hard wire the fan. Engines have specified operating temperatures. They are intended to be run at that temperature. Why anyone would think otherwise baffles me. At op. temp, all the components in a motor are designed to run with minimal wear and tear, and carburation is set to work well when the motor is up to temp.
5.) The tan guide is bolted with a 12mm bolt to the cases to the right of the cam drive sprocket on the crank, behind the pulser cover, and locks into the upper portion of the exhaust side of the head and is a static/fixed guide to prevent oscillations/mistracking in the chain. The black one is a floating guide that tensions the chain and pivots off of the acorn-nut fastened pivot on the tip of the head on the intake side, of course. The CCT drives against the lower portion of the guide and (supposedly
) takes the slack out of the chain. I believe mine has stopped doing so.
(note on the tan guide: You should have a 12mm bolt and a flanged collar that fits into the rear of the lower mount hole on the guide. That's all there is to it.)
You want this: http://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche....?Type=12&A=122
But more specifically, this: http://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche....e=13&A=122&B=6
2.) Yes. Lube camshaft journals with assembly lube. I also turned the engine over with the spark plugs out of it when I fininshed putting it together until I could visibly certify that oil was being pumped into the cam journals and out of the cams onto the valve buckets. That made me feel much better about firing it up after being apart. I just dumped oil onto each cam lobe and rotated the motor until it began to self-lubricate.
3.)I donno if I'd try to sketch by with an old head gasket. I would say that re-using a gasket like that would get you into trouble by maybe leaking and screwing up otherwise valid/good compression readings.
3.) any powersports head gasket I've ever dealt with (many) has been of the rubber coated metal construction, like you describe.
4.) On the stock radiator, there's a bung that a sender for the fan screws into. I believe it's just a switch. Hot=on, not=off. The sender on the thermostat housing on the right side of the head is responsible for the temp needle on your instrumet cluster. I don't know why people hard wire the fan. Engines have specified operating temperatures. They are intended to be run at that temperature. Why anyone would think otherwise baffles me. At op. temp, all the components in a motor are designed to run with minimal wear and tear, and carburation is set to work well when the motor is up to temp.
5.) The tan guide is bolted with a 12mm bolt to the cases to the right of the cam drive sprocket on the crank, behind the pulser cover, and locks into the upper portion of the exhaust side of the head and is a static/fixed guide to prevent oscillations/mistracking in the chain. The black one is a floating guide that tensions the chain and pivots off of the acorn-nut fastened pivot on the tip of the head on the intake side, of course. The CCT drives against the lower portion of the guide and (supposedly
) takes the slack out of the chain. I believe mine has stopped doing so.(note on the tan guide: You should have a 12mm bolt and a flanged collar that fits into the rear of the lower mount hole on the guide. That's all there is to it.)
You want this: http://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche....?Type=12&A=122
But more specifically, this: http://partsfinder.onlinemicrofiche....e=13&A=122&B=6
Last edited by JimmyHoffa; 10-07-2009 at 02:03 PM.
#3
10-07-2009, 01:56 PM
and most of all specifically, this: http://www.cbrzone.com/sprockets.html
If it makes you feel better, I am working through an almost identical situation and have very similar problems, plus I found a holy monkeyload of coolant in my oil, which I have 80%-certainly traced to a leak in the upper heat exchanger seal o-ring, due to various raging clues I was given by further inspection.
If it makes you feel better, I am working through an almost identical situation and have very similar problems, plus I found a holy monkeyload of coolant in my oil, which I have 80%-certainly traced to a leak in the upper heat exchanger seal o-ring, due to various raging clues I was given by further inspection.
Last edited by JimmyHoffa; 10-07-2009 at 02:00 PM.
#4
10-07-2009, 04:39 PM
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Hey Jimmy,
Thanks for the very thorough response. Got all my questions answered in one shot. +1
Thanks for the opinion about the head gasket. I'm still not sure what I'll do; maybe I should ask the guy who recommended the sealant what he thinks. If I were to buy a new head gasket, and then install it, and need to take it out once more: is it shot? Or is its livelyhood only a function of how long it's been installed (compressed) for?
What you said about the radiator/fan makes sense. I've read a few threads about people installing switches somewhere to turn the fan on or off based on how hot the gauge gets. I've also read enough to realize that the gauge is supposed to get to about 3/4 temperature (or more) to be running at optimal temperature. I think many people get freaked out by the gauge and install manual controls (like mine) to get it to run cooler.
I like the idea about cranking the engine by hand to ensure oil is moving. I was thinking, I would do things in this order (roughly):
- Clean head and cylinders and install gasket and bolt head down
-install engine into bike
-drain oil, refill with fresh
-douse valvetrain in fresh oil
-crank engine manually with pulse rotor until I confirm oil is being transported to the valve train.
I won't be cranking all day, right? Maybe 5 minutes max?
The black chain tensioner guide is still installed in my bike, and I can see the point that the tensioner ram applies pressure. But the tan one is outside the bike. Actually, I'm pretty sure that the associated bolt and flange are missing. But, I've located the parts on bikebandit.com and they will be mine for about $7. Also missing is a valve cover rubber grommet -- another $2 from the web.
So anyway, the tan guide is bolted at the bottom (looks like 1" forward of crankshaft) with a flanged 8mmX32mm hex bolt. And from what I read of your response, the top is somehow locked in place by the cylinder head upon installation. Can you possibly shed some light on how the top of the front chain guide is fastened?
I have the Clymer's book and it's a great resource. It says that quite a bit of maintenance can be done with the engine still in the frame. For that reason, I'd like to get it back in as soon as possible so that I won't have many different assemblies laying around to deal with.
Thanks for the very thorough response. Got all my questions answered in one shot. +1
Thanks for the opinion about the head gasket. I'm still not sure what I'll do; maybe I should ask the guy who recommended the sealant what he thinks. If I were to buy a new head gasket, and then install it, and need to take it out once more: is it shot? Or is its livelyhood only a function of how long it's been installed (compressed) for?
What you said about the radiator/fan makes sense. I've read a few threads about people installing switches somewhere to turn the fan on or off based on how hot the gauge gets. I've also read enough to realize that the gauge is supposed to get to about 3/4 temperature (or more) to be running at optimal temperature. I think many people get freaked out by the gauge and install manual controls (like mine) to get it to run cooler.
I like the idea about cranking the engine by hand to ensure oil is moving. I was thinking, I would do things in this order (roughly):
- Clean head and cylinders and install gasket and bolt head down
-install engine into bike
-drain oil, refill with fresh
-douse valvetrain in fresh oil
-crank engine manually with pulse rotor until I confirm oil is being transported to the valve train.
I won't be cranking all day, right? Maybe 5 minutes max?
The black chain tensioner guide is still installed in my bike, and I can see the point that the tensioner ram applies pressure. But the tan one is outside the bike. Actually, I'm pretty sure that the associated bolt and flange are missing. But, I've located the parts on bikebandit.com and they will be mine for about $7. Also missing is a valve cover rubber grommet -- another $2 from the web.
So anyway, the tan guide is bolted at the bottom (looks like 1" forward of crankshaft) with a flanged 8mmX32mm hex bolt. And from what I read of your response, the top is somehow locked in place by the cylinder head upon installation. Can you possibly shed some light on how the top of the front chain guide is fastened?
I have the Clymer's book and it's a great resource. It says that quite a bit of maintenance can be done with the engine still in the frame. For that reason, I'd like to get it back in as soon as possible so that I won't have many different assemblies laying around to deal with.
#5
10-07-2009, 05:43 PM
-I tend to believe that if the head gasket it torqued into place, it should be replaced the next time the head gets loosened/unbolted.
-Glad to see you're on my train with the fan. It's nice to have a passenger.
-Your game plan was pretty much my game plan with the motor and it seems to have worked. It was really only 30sec or so of cranking, but it was enough to learn me real guuuud about the real meaning of the the term "dry start" I'm pretty sure everything that I drive and work on will be cranked over for a bit at every oil change, from here on out.
-As far as I remember (I'll see again tonight, in my books a safe CCT install includes valve cover removal for regular inspection) there are grooves cast into the engine head that capture the upper portion of the tan chain guide and hold it in place side-to-side. The chain provides the pressure required to hold it in place. I don't mean to construe that design to sound shady. It's rock solid. Especially when you put that pivot collar/bolt in at the bottom, you'll be like OOOH YEAH....
I'm putting my CCT in tonight. Shall report on results later.
-Glad to see you're on my train with the fan. It's nice to have a passenger.
-Your game plan was pretty much my game plan with the motor and it seems to have worked. It was really only 30sec or so of cranking, but it was enough to learn me real guuuud about the real meaning of the the term "dry start" I'm pretty sure everything that I drive and work on will be cranked over for a bit at every oil change, from here on out.
-As far as I remember (I'll see again tonight, in my books a safe CCT install includes valve cover removal for regular inspection) there are grooves cast into the engine head that capture the upper portion of the tan chain guide and hold it in place side-to-side. The chain provides the pressure required to hold it in place. I don't mean to construe that design to sound shady. It's rock solid. Especially when you put that pivot collar/bolt in at the bottom, you'll be like OOOH YEAH....
I'm putting my CCT in tonight. Shall report on results later.
#6
10-07-2009, 06:41 PM
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#7
10-07-2009, 10:16 PM
Well. Let me know if you need any more advice, but I'm at a major holdup. You're on track to pull quite a bit ahead of me. I installed the APE CCT about 20 mins. ago, and it was definitely not the problem. There is something much more serious and horrible going on in the right side of my engine head. It pains me to run it past about 4000 RPM. It's ridiculously loud. It ticks in a major way that one cannot ignore. It revs snappily and doesn't smoke at all or do anything else to deserve my suspicion, but something is quite seriously wrong. I don't know what to think. I wish I had a spare head to swap on. I know it's valvetrain noise. I think the head's coming off this weekend. With the noise it makes, it darn well better be obvious.
I don't have a camera here, but I looked again and the tan guide on the front of the motor just sits in grooves cast in the head where it's supported near the top. The black guide is pinned at the top with the acorn nut, and is pushed into the chain with the CCT near the lower drive sprocket. That's all there is to it.
I don't have a camera here, but I looked again and the tan guide on the front of the motor just sits in grooves cast in the head where it's supported near the top. The black guide is pinned at the top with the acorn nut, and is pushed into the chain with the CCT near the lower drive sprocket. That's all there is to it.
#8
10-07-2009, 10:22 PM
#9
10-08-2009, 10:23 PM
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Jimmy -- very sorry to hear about your extra unidentified noise. From another thread though it seems like you've located the source of it pretty well.
Just one more quick question I'd like to get off my chest, if I may. Is it possible to install a cam sprocket 180 degrees wrong? On my bike, one sprocket is installed and the other is not. It seems to have two bolt holes, each opposite the other. And according to my manual, I'll use the markings on the sprocket to ensure I've got the timing chain installed correctly. Should I be worried about this, or how to I ensure I've got it bolted together correctly?
Just one more quick question I'd like to get off my chest, if I may. Is it possible to install a cam sprocket 180 degrees wrong? On my bike, one sprocket is installed and the other is not. It seems to have two bolt holes, each opposite the other. And according to my manual, I'll use the markings on the sprocket to ensure I've got the timing chain installed correctly. Should I be worried about this, or how to I ensure I've got it bolted together correctly?
#10
10-08-2009, 11:07 PM
The trick is this. The engine is in time and sprockets are correct if this is the situation: (Cyl 1 as reference, with engine at TDC on pulser cover)
The intake cam IN mark is flush with the face of the head that the valvetrain cap sits on. It should be the outer sealing face, not the face between the two half-moon gasket pits.
The intake cam lobe should be facing away from the center of the head, and slightly up.
The mirror image should be true of the exhaust cam. The EX mark flush with the outer sealing face on the head, and the lobe pointed up and opposite the center of the head. (Toward the front of the bike)
Now, the IN and EX marks on the cam sprockets should be as far from each other as possible, and flush with the sealing surface on the head, and the cam lobes regulating CYL #1 should be opposite each other and slightly above horizontal.
The intake cam IN mark is flush with the face of the head that the valvetrain cap sits on. It should be the outer sealing face, not the face between the two half-moon gasket pits.
The intake cam lobe should be facing away from the center of the head, and slightly up.
The mirror image should be true of the exhaust cam. The EX mark flush with the outer sealing face on the head, and the lobe pointed up and opposite the center of the head. (Toward the front of the bike)
Now, the IN and EX marks on the cam sprockets should be as far from each other as possible, and flush with the sealing surface on the head, and the cam lobes regulating CYL #1 should be opposite each other and slightly above horizontal.
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