rear brake problem..Please help..
#1
04-07-2009, 03:52 PM
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rear brake problem..Please help..
howdy all i have an 06 1000rr. Ive been noticing that my rear brake is acting up. Feels like im having to put weight down on the brake lever more to actually get the wheel to lock up. Ive ridden other sportbikes and the rear brake seems to lock up very easily with not much effort at all. Do we just have weak rear brakes on the 2006 cbr 1000rr or do you see a problem here. Nothing is binding up everything is moving like supposed to. Dosent seem to grab untill the end of the lever reach then push aq little harder to get the wheel to actually lock up. Not right i believe. What could be wrong or what could i do other than what i have done to fix this problem. Thankyou for any input..
#4
04-07-2009, 04:45 PM
Senior Member
#5
04-07-2009, 05:13 PM
#7
05-04-2009, 10:15 AM
As it should be?
Hi to all.
I have something to add to this forum and hope it may bring some insight.
The symptom described is an issue that many modern-day, sports bike riders (particularly Honda) are having to come to terms with, especially those with bikes manufactured over the last two years or so. I have a cbr1000rr8 and it too has little rear brake effect. Mine will not lock up either no matter how hard I press it... but there is a sound reason for it.
I have been involved with motorcycles for over 30 years and my past experience with older models suggested that something was not quite right. Having a dealer check it over was of no value except to say that it was in good order and working as it should but as to why it was so apparently weak was not known. We all reasoned that a powerful bike should have powerful brakes too; and it does.... up front.
Every bike I'd had before locked the rear wheel with ease... until now. I was stumped thinking my machine was faulty. It was not until the right questions were addressed to the right people did the answer come.
The question was not... "what's wrong with my bike?" but "Why did Honda design it this way?"
Undeniably, we'd think the the best info comes directly from the source... The dealer. Unfortunately, like most things, not everyone is an expert in every arena and sometimes people can be slow on the uptake of new ideas and even resistant to progress in general. Often they just don't know or have never really thought about it thoroughly enough.
Those who who race the bikes professionally really know the principles involved and always have something interesting or thought provoking to offer. Often we find their ideas can sometimes not be what we expected, defying our dated concepts. Thinking outside the square is difficult at times. Believe me, people had a hard time when they were told the earth was in fact round and not flat. Every notion of the earth and all maps were made obsolete in a flash.
It seems in life we learn that "the answer" to any question is only 25%... the other 75% lay in asking the right question. In other words we can waste much time, money and effort chasing our tails trying this and that to try to solve our apparent problem only to find out in the end that we didn't really have one to start with. We may even throw away a perfectly good machine simply because something is supposedly not "how it should be". Often it's more likely the problem is simply that it's "not what we're used to".
The overall design philosophy of a motorcycle requires that everything work together as a whole. Make more power and it changes nearly everything to some degree. Improvement comes naturally for humans and improvement is definitely what the consumer wants. Change becomes even more prevalent as the market becomes more competitive. There have never been so many capable manufacturers as there are today. Each one is following their own design approach to the same old time existent problems. Bikes must go, stop and turn...
Some changes, when taken on their own, appear to make little or no sense. Only recently have manufacturers deemed it fit to outline their concepts. It seems that even in their triumph and excitement of making new motorcycles the factories have still got a lot of ground to cover, particularly when it comes to educating the public as to the finer principles of their particular design.
Promotional blarb and owners manuals go nowhere near telling you how to set the bike up nor why it's made as it is. The manufacturer's primary goal is to produce a seller. It is not about educating us. To really understand the bike properly we need know how it works... not just the individual components but all of it, as a whole and all working as one. Sure, riding a bike gives you a basic understanding of the physics involved in riding but stops short of the specifics that make all the difference. To fill in blanks we need to look to those with the most experience mainly because it can't readily be found written on paper anywhere and besides, who knows better than a successful pro?
As far as your rear brake goes, perhaps it may need be considered, that the manufacturer has provided a brake that (in keeping with the direction of performance, safety and theory/design) is simply not intended to be easily locked up. It's made that way for good reason.
We all know that a locked rear brake causes rear wheel traction loss. It halts the stabilizing, centrifugal force of the spinning wheel and often leads to us "having a moment". We've all done it. In contrast, depending on the application (dirt bike riding), locking a rear wheel briefly at the right moment is a valid technique to change direction but it has no real place on the road or race-track.
We know that engine compression at high rpm under deceleration (during downshifting) can cause chatter, rear wheel hop and traction loss. All of which in turn, causes stability problems. Slipper-clutches offer a solution for stability issues when transitioning the loads from "on" to "off" throttle. The slipper-clutch shod bike holds its line and turns in better and is much easier to ride at speed. The reason is because there is no lock up and no chatter. There's a smoother transition of the forces at work and smoother always equals faster!
When it comes to the rear brake we need remember that the front brake does all the work (95-98%) when slowing us down. Try and stop fast without the front brake and you'll find the bike doesn't really stop! In fact the moment the brake locks up, traction is lost and its ability to slow the bike is reduced even more.
One truth gained from riding experience is that careful rear brake application helps aid stability during deceleration and is part of, but certainly, not the end in itself. The front is what does the most work as we find out the first time we try to stop the bike. Most useful, is the technique of dragging the rear brake with a light application through slower turns, helping to keep the bike steady and on line before the apex until the transition to an open throttle and acceleration is applied.
Prototype racing, such as MotoGP, allows for serious problem solving and development and has led to a "trickle-down" effect. Eventually innovation from racing finds it's way onto the showroom floor in some form or another and of late this process can be observed now more than ever. In the 1980's it took 20 years or so for race track innovations to appear on the production models in any significant form. Now it's only a few years and the proven technologies are now viable to produce, and best of all... reliable and buyable.
As our bikes become more and more performance oriented the way we approach them also needs to change. In many ways what was regarded as normal before is not so now! One of those areas of recent change is in brake design and use.
The over-use of the rear brake is counter productive to safe or fast riding and is being gradually redefined on production motorcycles to perform the way the pros have known for years... that there is a definite purpose intended for the rear brake... as a tool for stability control under brakes but not just as a brake in itself. It just happens to look like one so we think it is one. The real brakes are up front remember!
The quicker a bike goes the harder it is to manage and stop efficiently. Each component of a motorcycle is a science unto itself. Proof of that is found in how many people understand motors but very few of those have suspension knowledge or can relate to chassis and geometry issues. After some head scratching... "You'll have to take it some-one else" they are often heard to say. Finding good, valid and informed answers can often be as difficult as asking the right question.
Of course there's a very real possibility that the problem mentioned in the forum is in fact a genuine symptom of a mechanical fault. However, if after cleaning, inspection and the satisfactory replacement of worn parts there is no improvement then maybe the brake really is working as it was designed to. Consider, perhaps, that the brake was intended to be "hard to lock up" and is so for a very good reason... (as mentioned earlier) loss of traction and or stability that can easily lead to a crash.
In short, the current trend of soft rear brakes is regarded by many as a necessary idea in terms of general safety for everyday use and is found to be superior in terms of race track performance. On the road, people tend to over use their brakes, particularly in an emergency... hence the evolution of anti-lock brakes recently. Naturally, not all motorcyclists, however, favor anti-lock brakes. I am talking about those who race and have little real use for them. The rear brake though, due to it's usefulness in aiding with stability under specific conditions is entirely an different matter.
There really are many things to consider for such a simple question and it was a good one that deserves a detailed answer. It reminds me of people i have known that have encountered seemingly frustrating or unsolvable problems in life simply because they haven't been aware of the bigger picture. When the overall view is appreciated they often find their problem wasn't a problem at all. In fact it was a benefit in disguise.
The bike is no different. Our minds ought be focused on the reason for manufacturers to provide a brake that doesn't lock? What are the advantages? Consider the intended benefits of a rear wheel that doesn't easily lock up, no matter how hard you press on it. Rear wheel lock up is rarely an advantage in the real world nor on a track, is it? Only yesterday on a club ride we lost an inexperienced rider to rear wheel lock up caused by panic braking during a bumpy turn. It was a needless accident, costly and painful in every way. The back end stepped out and that was it... highside! (Old school rear brakes that lock with ease).
In short I have found that my CBR's rear brake is as it should be... in keeping with modern design and there's a very good chance yours is too. There was nothing wrong with my brake. In fact there's everything right with it. The quicker I go and the harder I press the bike the more I appreciate all the thought that went into it. The boys on the MotoGP bikes and those doing the World Superbike series really do know a thing or two about staying on and the factories are listening at last.
Hope this helps ease your concerns,
Spook.
I have something to add to this forum and hope it may bring some insight.
The symptom described is an issue that many modern-day, sports bike riders (particularly Honda) are having to come to terms with, especially those with bikes manufactured over the last two years or so. I have a cbr1000rr8 and it too has little rear brake effect. Mine will not lock up either no matter how hard I press it... but there is a sound reason for it.
I have been involved with motorcycles for over 30 years and my past experience with older models suggested that something was not quite right. Having a dealer check it over was of no value except to say that it was in good order and working as it should but as to why it was so apparently weak was not known. We all reasoned that a powerful bike should have powerful brakes too; and it does.... up front.
Every bike I'd had before locked the rear wheel with ease... until now. I was stumped thinking my machine was faulty. It was not until the right questions were addressed to the right people did the answer come.
The question was not... "what's wrong with my bike?" but "Why did Honda design it this way?"
Undeniably, we'd think the the best info comes directly from the source... The dealer. Unfortunately, like most things, not everyone is an expert in every arena and sometimes people can be slow on the uptake of new ideas and even resistant to progress in general. Often they just don't know or have never really thought about it thoroughly enough.
Those who who race the bikes professionally really know the principles involved and always have something interesting or thought provoking to offer. Often we find their ideas can sometimes not be what we expected, defying our dated concepts. Thinking outside the square is difficult at times. Believe me, people had a hard time when they were told the earth was in fact round and not flat. Every notion of the earth and all maps were made obsolete in a flash.
It seems in life we learn that "the answer" to any question is only 25%... the other 75% lay in asking the right question. In other words we can waste much time, money and effort chasing our tails trying this and that to try to solve our apparent problem only to find out in the end that we didn't really have one to start with. We may even throw away a perfectly good machine simply because something is supposedly not "how it should be". Often it's more likely the problem is simply that it's "not what we're used to".
The overall design philosophy of a motorcycle requires that everything work together as a whole. Make more power and it changes nearly everything to some degree. Improvement comes naturally for humans and improvement is definitely what the consumer wants. Change becomes even more prevalent as the market becomes more competitive. There have never been so many capable manufacturers as there are today. Each one is following their own design approach to the same old time existent problems. Bikes must go, stop and turn...
Some changes, when taken on their own, appear to make little or no sense. Only recently have manufacturers deemed it fit to outline their concepts. It seems that even in their triumph and excitement of making new motorcycles the factories have still got a lot of ground to cover, particularly when it comes to educating the public as to the finer principles of their particular design.
Promotional blarb and owners manuals go nowhere near telling you how to set the bike up nor why it's made as it is. The manufacturer's primary goal is to produce a seller. It is not about educating us. To really understand the bike properly we need know how it works... not just the individual components but all of it, as a whole and all working as one. Sure, riding a bike gives you a basic understanding of the physics involved in riding but stops short of the specifics that make all the difference. To fill in blanks we need to look to those with the most experience mainly because it can't readily be found written on paper anywhere and besides, who knows better than a successful pro?
As far as your rear brake goes, perhaps it may need be considered, that the manufacturer has provided a brake that (in keeping with the direction of performance, safety and theory/design) is simply not intended to be easily locked up. It's made that way for good reason.
We all know that a locked rear brake causes rear wheel traction loss. It halts the stabilizing, centrifugal force of the spinning wheel and often leads to us "having a moment". We've all done it. In contrast, depending on the application (dirt bike riding), locking a rear wheel briefly at the right moment is a valid technique to change direction but it has no real place on the road or race-track.
We know that engine compression at high rpm under deceleration (during downshifting) can cause chatter, rear wheel hop and traction loss. All of which in turn, causes stability problems. Slipper-clutches offer a solution for stability issues when transitioning the loads from "on" to "off" throttle. The slipper-clutch shod bike holds its line and turns in better and is much easier to ride at speed. The reason is because there is no lock up and no chatter. There's a smoother transition of the forces at work and smoother always equals faster!
When it comes to the rear brake we need remember that the front brake does all the work (95-98%) when slowing us down. Try and stop fast without the front brake and you'll find the bike doesn't really stop! In fact the moment the brake locks up, traction is lost and its ability to slow the bike is reduced even more.
One truth gained from riding experience is that careful rear brake application helps aid stability during deceleration and is part of, but certainly, not the end in itself. The front is what does the most work as we find out the first time we try to stop the bike. Most useful, is the technique of dragging the rear brake with a light application through slower turns, helping to keep the bike steady and on line before the apex until the transition to an open throttle and acceleration is applied.
Prototype racing, such as MotoGP, allows for serious problem solving and development and has led to a "trickle-down" effect. Eventually innovation from racing finds it's way onto the showroom floor in some form or another and of late this process can be observed now more than ever. In the 1980's it took 20 years or so for race track innovations to appear on the production models in any significant form. Now it's only a few years and the proven technologies are now viable to produce, and best of all... reliable and buyable.
As our bikes become more and more performance oriented the way we approach them also needs to change. In many ways what was regarded as normal before is not so now! One of those areas of recent change is in brake design and use.
The over-use of the rear brake is counter productive to safe or fast riding and is being gradually redefined on production motorcycles to perform the way the pros have known for years... that there is a definite purpose intended for the rear brake... as a tool for stability control under brakes but not just as a brake in itself. It just happens to look like one so we think it is one. The real brakes are up front remember!
The quicker a bike goes the harder it is to manage and stop efficiently. Each component of a motorcycle is a science unto itself. Proof of that is found in how many people understand motors but very few of those have suspension knowledge or can relate to chassis and geometry issues. After some head scratching... "You'll have to take it some-one else" they are often heard to say. Finding good, valid and informed answers can often be as difficult as asking the right question.
Of course there's a very real possibility that the problem mentioned in the forum is in fact a genuine symptom of a mechanical fault. However, if after cleaning, inspection and the satisfactory replacement of worn parts there is no improvement then maybe the brake really is working as it was designed to. Consider, perhaps, that the brake was intended to be "hard to lock up" and is so for a very good reason... (as mentioned earlier) loss of traction and or stability that can easily lead to a crash.
In short, the current trend of soft rear brakes is regarded by many as a necessary idea in terms of general safety for everyday use and is found to be superior in terms of race track performance. On the road, people tend to over use their brakes, particularly in an emergency... hence the evolution of anti-lock brakes recently. Naturally, not all motorcyclists, however, favor anti-lock brakes. I am talking about those who race and have little real use for them. The rear brake though, due to it's usefulness in aiding with stability under specific conditions is entirely an different matter.
There really are many things to consider for such a simple question and it was a good one that deserves a detailed answer. It reminds me of people i have known that have encountered seemingly frustrating or unsolvable problems in life simply because they haven't been aware of the bigger picture. When the overall view is appreciated they often find their problem wasn't a problem at all. In fact it was a benefit in disguise.
The bike is no different. Our minds ought be focused on the reason for manufacturers to provide a brake that doesn't lock? What are the advantages? Consider the intended benefits of a rear wheel that doesn't easily lock up, no matter how hard you press on it. Rear wheel lock up is rarely an advantage in the real world nor on a track, is it? Only yesterday on a club ride we lost an inexperienced rider to rear wheel lock up caused by panic braking during a bumpy turn. It was a needless accident, costly and painful in every way. The back end stepped out and that was it... highside! (Old school rear brakes that lock with ease).
In short I have found that my CBR's rear brake is as it should be... in keeping with modern design and there's a very good chance yours is too. There was nothing wrong with my brake. In fact there's everything right with it. The quicker I go and the harder I press the bike the more I appreciate all the thought that went into it. The boys on the MotoGP bikes and those doing the World Superbike series really do know a thing or two about staying on and the factories are listening at last.
Hope this helps ease your concerns,
Spook.
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