Easily. It's called having an opinion with no facts to back it up. Ignorance, one might say.

 

Havoc, I was just trying to stear away from offending anyone ... but you're right, it's wrong to just leave it at that.

Let me make sure to preface this by saying that I DO NOT in anyway condone or excuse any of his actions and that HE DESERVES any sentence, NFL probation, etc.. coming his way .. but with that said:

I know this is not the popular P.O.V. but from my view there is a racial component here. I'm usually the first one to say b.s. when the race card is played but in this situation you have to consider that it's going to cost him nearly $130 million, he's going to jail, probation from NFL, and possibly losing his career as a result of this. Some will say, well he deserves every bit of that and then some for the animal cruelty. I'm not denying that, what I am saying however is that you have to put yourself in his shoes. He was brought up in an environment that glorifies dog fighting and makes it look glamorous etc... does that justify what he did? No, absolutely not. However, if you are brought up where everyone around you treats it as no big deal and it's looked at just like betting on dog racing at the track then that is part of the "race" and culture he was brought up in. It's like being brought up in a culture where cannibalism is okay to them and horrific to us. The gov't has been fully aware of dog fighting for a long time and they chose to use this one as an example á la Martha Stewart. Why didn't they do something long ago before the money gravy train came their way?

I DO NOT IN ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM condone dog fighting (I have had dogs of my own all my life and abhor cruelty to animals) but denying there is a racial component to this is your choice but my take is the gov't has ulterior motives in this and it is not primarily to stop dog fighting .. Vick was all gangsta even before all this and if that's the life he wants then he deserves what he gets, but the gov't by going after a public figure are just putting a band aid on it and pushing it further underground .. if they really wanted to stop or reduce it I don't think they would go after the most public figure whereby it will be more difficult to catch future rings .. I would think they would've come at it from a different angle that would achieve better results. I know most disagree with me on this but that's my story and I'm sticking with it [8D]

 

alright....let me be the first to go on this....no offense to KewlBreeze...i think this is a good thing to talk about...additionally i have some insight have learned specifically about dog fighting in a legal sense in law school in my animal law class (yes, i am one of those [8D])

let me take things in pieces and try to keep it straight as best i can...what you are describing isn't really a racial component as you are suggesting....but rather a cultural one...dog fighting, along with **** fighting, is something that traditionally existed heavily in southern states....this is evidenced by many states having given way to banning such activities, however, and i can't recall which state, a southern state was one of the last to try and prevent it, in fact, their laws had loopholes to allow it...this had NOTHING to do with race but rather with culture....if you want to argue that culturally, in the south this might be accepted, then okay...but race it is not....

further, i understand that dog fighting has crept into the 'gansta lifestyle', however using that as a shield saying that the 'gansta lifestyle' is a racial thing is doing more harm than good....you are allowing outs for people and it's just not acceptable....that's like saying because guns are used heavily in that lifestyle that you cannot be angry for a racial group for carrying guns because well, a lifestyle which was created condones it...it's a fatally flawed argument...the glorified lifestyle that people are leaning on is a cop out to make this a race issue when it isn't....

also, the gov't has been doing quite a bit about dog fighting...in fact, just prior to all this, it was made a felony, previously it was not and it was a slap on the wrist in most states which in effect made it more popular...you have no basis to say no one has been fighting dog fighting...i have particpated in a lot of work in the city of chicago to crack down on it, being that it has an extremely high level of dog fighting here....

you are assuming they are making an example of Vick....i think you are wrong...a lot of people have been trying to get this quelled forever it seems like...look up www.hsus.org and look what they have done about this, for years....it just so happened that Vick took part not only in dog fighting, he bank rolled it, comitted numerous felonies including dog fighting, animal abuse and the like, violated interstate commerce laws, lied to numerous people including his team and the nfl...this guy is a scum bucket...this is beyond the jackass doing it in his basement....this was a full-blown operation with 100s of thousand dollars running through it...this was organized crime...this wasn't a social hobby....having vick do this is a great thing for the mo

 

+1 that would be the biggest pay-per-view night in the history of television.

i can't believe people are putting dog fighting in the same boat as hunting. there's a HUGE difference between hunting and dog fighting (just like there's a huge difference between UFC and the Roman Gladiator fights). when you hunt, you don't wound the animal and then kill it slowly. it's been a while since i've hunted, but most of the animals i've shot went down instantly, and we had them processed and actually ate them. my favorite is turkey, there's nothing like eating fresh turkey for Christmas dinner. i think Vick should be locked up for a while, he's a worthless piece of sh*t. so what if he can scramble when he's too chicken sh*t to throw? he's human like the rest of us and should suffer the consequences. and whether or not it's a race issue doesn't matter. so what if he's black? white guys have been busted for running dog fighting rings, as have Hispanics. they're only making it a race issue because he's a well-known athlete. being black didn't make him run a dog fighting ring, he chose to do it.

 

ff, 1st off, props to you for your posting style .. even when you have an opposing view you tend to debate without flames or insults which seems to be a lost art on forums these days ... so again, props to you for that (except of course on your 1st post where u said anyone defending him is an idiot [8D] but I'm not really defending him)

w/out going at it point by point let me just say that the crux of your point relies on the basis that race and culture are separate. I agree that by definition they are separate but in my estimation the reality is that the two are related ... in many cases the culture you're brought up in is related to your race. So debating on that basis would just be semantics and get us no where. Granted you can be of one race and brought up in a culture not usually associated with it but that is not the case with Vick. From what I've seen and read, dog fighting is predominate in the African American underground community moreso than elsewhere. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen elsewhere just saying that's what I've read .. wrong or right I don't know but that was the basis of part of my conclusions.

You say I'm giving "outs" by using race but I want to make sure to clarify that I'm not saying he should not be convicted or fined so I'm not trying to find "outs", I'm saying if you agree there is a preexisting environmental factor, then the severity of the punishment should be adjusted accordingly until that part of the equation is eliminated by other means ...

Reading your post and seeing that you have inside knowledge on this and have 1st hand experience I will not be so arrogant as to try and argue the other points and I bow to your superior knowledge on those matters. We're not really debating Vick so much as the dog fighting culture but some of the stuff is still too vague to make any real judgment on ... I would rather wait to see how it plays out .. for example, just today there have been reports that the 3 Vick associates that made a lot of the case for the feds by testifying against him may have been coerced into making false statements. I don't know if that's true or not but just saying there may be more to this .. Vick initially came out adamantly saying he was not guilty and then pleaded guilty on the basis of those statements and other stuff so for all I know at this point he could be a huge liar (not that far fetched) and total scum or this could be another case of using a scapegoat to get what they want. Not saying it's a conspiracy against him but there could be more to it, ya know?

I didn't know about the correlation between animal cruelty types and vicious people in general but I don't find it that difficult to believe.

Again, you seem to know a lot more about this than I do so I can only speak to what my gut tells me ... I never said I had any cited source or anything. If you say the gov't is doing a lot more to fight it than I've noticed I will have to buy that as a counterpoint that I can't argue against .. but this is has def. been the most visible episode I've seen of them doing anything.

 

u can take him out the hood but u cant take the hood out of him

 

http://www.kzoorice.com/forums/index...howtopic=20450

Here's a topic I started on my local car forum. It can lead you to the link below:

https://community.hsus.org/campaign/...gfighting_nfl2


Vick was smirking the same day he was admitting to what he did. I'm going to level 2 of hell for what I think about him. If you've got that much money, go kill a deer. One less for me to hit while riding.

 

I think he was in it up to his eyeballs (no proof what so ever). I also think his money and celebrity are going to get him off easy, i'm sorry but if he in fact was all the way in, 1 year in jail for the things i have heard is insulting.

 

IMO, Michael ConVick should serve 18 - 24 months anda subsequent 1 year suspension from the NFL.

 

Ban him for life. If thats how pro atheletes are going to spend my hard earned money (we pay there ridiculous salaries remember) then they dont deserve it.