Britain re-thinking stance on guns.
#1
11-06-2009, 06:20 AM
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Britain re-thinking stance on guns.
I know there has been much debate here in the past on Britain and gun control. Everyone has a viewpoint and its been debated relentlessly. I wouldnt normally choose to re-hash the whole thing but I saw something in the news that seems to indicate a change. It seems that as time goes by, Britain is having the same problem as other countries. Since hand guns are banned, only the criminals have them. According to this article the un-armed police are being out gunned by the drug dealing gangs and they are having to create teams of sub-machine gun wielding police to deal with them. It seems criminals will always find a way no matter how many laws you create or freedoms you restrict, criminals dont mind breaking the law.
It seems that who ever wrote the article makes it clear that there is a lot of fear of guns over there.
Anyway, here is the article, you be the judge
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...0_UYwD9BGQVV00
Britain deploys permanently armed police in London
By DAVID STRINGER (AP) – Oct 23, 2009
LONDON — Wielding submachine guns and pistols, British police are making rare armed patrols in crime-blighted London neighborhoods — a change in law enforcement tactics that may prompt calls for the wider use of weapons by the country's traditionally unarmed Bobbies.
London's police department said Friday that a new armed unit is carrying out regular sweeps of districts riven by gun battles between rival drug gangs.
Unlike typical police procedure, the team of about 20 officers actively seeks out criminals carrying or storing guns — rather than waiting to respond to emergency calls about incidents involving weapons.
Chief Inspector Neil Sharman said the unit began work in June to tackle pockets of rising gun crime, and will double in size from November amid concerns over the increasing use of weapons in Britain's capital.
In contrast to the United States and many European nations, British police have never routinely carried firearms on patrol, with only a limited number of specialist officers trained to use guns. Britain's Home Office said being unarmed is part of the "character of the police" in the U.K.
"In the past the police were authority figures dealing primarily with people who respected the police. However, as terrorism and crime increases in the U.K. the traditional icon of the Bobby on the beat is becoming incapable of dealing with terrorists and violent crime," said Bob Ayers, a London-based former U.S. intelligence officer.
The British public has traditionally been resistant to the routine arming of police — a skepticism heightened by the 2005 shooting death of an innocent Brazilian electrician, mistaken by police marksmen for a suicide bomber.
Yet, some argue Britain is now naive to believe that police can tackle rising levels of gun crime without weapons of their own.
"Every single police officer should have a gun," said Daniel Dixon, a 25-year-old engineer from central London. "Criminals might be carrying weapons, and the police officer is endangering himself by not having one."
It seems that who ever wrote the article makes it clear that there is a lot of fear of guns over there.
Anyway, here is the article, you be the judge
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...0_UYwD9BGQVV00
Britain deploys permanently armed police in London
By DAVID STRINGER (AP) – Oct 23, 2009
LONDON — Wielding submachine guns and pistols, British police are making rare armed patrols in crime-blighted London neighborhoods — a change in law enforcement tactics that may prompt calls for the wider use of weapons by the country's traditionally unarmed Bobbies.
London's police department said Friday that a new armed unit is carrying out regular sweeps of districts riven by gun battles between rival drug gangs.
Unlike typical police procedure, the team of about 20 officers actively seeks out criminals carrying or storing guns — rather than waiting to respond to emergency calls about incidents involving weapons.
Chief Inspector Neil Sharman said the unit began work in June to tackle pockets of rising gun crime, and will double in size from November amid concerns over the increasing use of weapons in Britain's capital.
In contrast to the United States and many European nations, British police have never routinely carried firearms on patrol, with only a limited number of specialist officers trained to use guns. Britain's Home Office said being unarmed is part of the "character of the police" in the U.K.
"In the past the police were authority figures dealing primarily with people who respected the police. However, as terrorism and crime increases in the U.K. the traditional icon of the Bobby on the beat is becoming incapable of dealing with terrorists and violent crime," said Bob Ayers, a London-based former U.S. intelligence officer.
The British public has traditionally been resistant to the routine arming of police — a skepticism heightened by the 2005 shooting death of an innocent Brazilian electrician, mistaken by police marksmen for a suicide bomber.
Yet, some argue Britain is now naive to believe that police can tackle rising levels of gun crime without weapons of their own.
"Every single police officer should have a gun," said Daniel Dixon, a 25-year-old engineer from central London. "Criminals might be carrying weapons, and the police officer is endangering himself by not having one."
#2
11-06-2009, 06:28 AM
Hate to say it but the U.K is finished as we knew it.
Todays Green & pleasant land is one of the most crime ridden,violent little Islands in the world.I hear that from friends/family who live there.
The creation of the EU,before that 20 years earlier , the Berlin Wall coming down flooded the "west" with all sorts of elements....
Todays Green & pleasant land is one of the most crime ridden,violent little Islands in the world.I hear that from friends/family who live there.
The creation of the EU,before that 20 years earlier , the Berlin Wall coming down flooded the "west" with all sorts of elements....
#3
11-06-2009, 06:51 AM
Keeping things in perspective here .. I agree some of the cities have problems, like all countries do ... but those of us who do not live in cities have no problems at all ... and do not forget the majority of the UK is still green and extremely very pleasant ... there are countless little quiet sleepy villages and hamlets like the one I live in where nothing ever happens and I mean nothing ever happens for centuries ..lol...
By the same token I am sure it's easy enough to go into a nightclub in Liverpool, get into an arguement and end up being stabbed, knives have become a problem here with youths carrying them and getting into fights, someone invariably gets stabbed ...
So we have our safe parts as well as our bad parts ... I do not know America well at all but I hear things like the Bronx is really bad yet places like PA are lovely and peaceful so it all depends where you are ....
I do think all our police should be armed though against the criminals and thugs with guns/knives ... as for our citizens I feel if we legally armed every citizen then we also legally arm every low life/scumbag who would not normally have got armed ..but because it's legal has gone and done so, I know the arguement about the criminals get guns anyway but most of the yobs/youths/low lifes here etc are not armed, legally arm them and they will think they are TV tough guys .. these people are retards and I believe there would simply be more shootings which means more deaths by the gun ... it's a tough one but like anywhere it's very easy to paint a poor picture of a country by only showing the bad parts ... it is one of the reasons the UK has a poor image of America, the media gives us an image that you are all gun toting maniacs who shoot each other for looking at each other the wrong way, you know like you get shot for saying a smart *** comment ..lol
I am sure it's not really like that but that is media for you ...
All that said I would welcome any one's opinion on all this too ... even if you think I and my country folk should be armed to the teeth
For the record I have never seen a gun outside of a gun club here, I have never had a knife or a gun pulled on me or seen anyone else have it done to them ..it's the kinda stuff I might hear/see in our tv news ..eg. Manchester man stabbed in nightclub, police looking for witnesses
I have to say despite rising crime everywhere and in my own country I do feel very safe here still ...but then I do not go night clubbing in cities and spilling drinks on angry mentally retarded clubbers ..lol
Trouble is easy enough to avoid wherever you live :-)
Jules
By the same token I am sure it's easy enough to go into a nightclub in Liverpool, get into an arguement and end up being stabbed, knives have become a problem here with youths carrying them and getting into fights, someone invariably gets stabbed ...
So we have our safe parts as well as our bad parts ... I do not know America well at all but I hear things like the Bronx is really bad yet places like PA are lovely and peaceful so it all depends where you are ....
I do think all our police should be armed though against the criminals and thugs with guns/knives ... as for our citizens I feel if we legally armed every citizen then we also legally arm every low life/scumbag who would not normally have got armed ..but because it's legal has gone and done so, I know the arguement about the criminals get guns anyway but most of the yobs/youths/low lifes here etc are not armed, legally arm them and they will think they are TV tough guys .. these people are retards and I believe there would simply be more shootings which means more deaths by the gun ... it's a tough one but like anywhere it's very easy to paint a poor picture of a country by only showing the bad parts ... it is one of the reasons the UK has a poor image of America, the media gives us an image that you are all gun toting maniacs who shoot each other for looking at each other the wrong way, you know like you get shot for saying a smart *** comment ..lol
I am sure it's not really like that but that is media for you ...
All that said I would welcome any one's opinion on all this too ... even if you think I and my country folk should be armed to the teeth
For the record I have never seen a gun outside of a gun club here, I have never had a knife or a gun pulled on me or seen anyone else have it done to them ..it's the kinda stuff I might hear/see in our tv news ..eg. Manchester man stabbed in nightclub, police looking for witnesses
I have to say despite rising crime everywhere and in my own country I do feel very safe here still ...but then I do not go night clubbing in cities and spilling drinks on angry mentally retarded clubbers ..lol
Trouble is easy enough to avoid wherever you live :-)
Jules
Last edited by Juliet; 11-06-2009 at 08:31 AM.
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#5
11-06-2009, 07:18 AM
and just to remind you guys this is where I live :-)
and every body here has a cheery wave and a smile hello when you walk past
not exactly a gun toting drug dealing neighbourhood ..lol
and, of course we have built walls around the village with armed guards at every entrance
outsiders are simply not tolerated ..lol
and every body here has a cheery wave and a smile hello when you walk past
not exactly a gun toting drug dealing neighbourhood ..lol
and, of course we have built walls around the village with armed guards at every entrance
outsiders are simply not tolerated ..lol
Last edited by Juliet; 11-06-2009 at 10:21 AM.
#6
11-06-2009, 07:32 AM
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Jules I have never seen a gun pulled on someone here either. In the media, things are sensationalized. I do see guns on a regular basis but mostly because I have an interest in them and associate with those who share it.
Pretty much every town has a bad section. Years ago we started building "project housing" for the poor and giving them a welfare check and food stamps. Now these area’s that the government built in each town are about 5th generation of people who have never worked and had nothing to do all day but get into trouble. Usually any violence you hear about is some kind of spill over from one of these places.
The world is changing though and different races and cultures are now sharing the same land and that’s not likely gonna be peaceful all the time.
I know you don’t see it this way but allowing law-abiding citizens to arm themselves is not the same as arming every kid with a gang mentality. Honestly, legal guns here are very expensive and cant be had by most criminal wanna-be's legally. They usually resort to theft...
I'm guessing that as time goes on, some criminals will realize that those sleepy little towns you have with everyone un-armed are easy marks for home invasions (theft/rape), and car jackings. It’s almost inevitable.
Pretty much every town has a bad section. Years ago we started building "project housing" for the poor and giving them a welfare check and food stamps. Now these area’s that the government built in each town are about 5th generation of people who have never worked and had nothing to do all day but get into trouble. Usually any violence you hear about is some kind of spill over from one of these places.
The world is changing though and different races and cultures are now sharing the same land and that’s not likely gonna be peaceful all the time.
I know you don’t see it this way but allowing law-abiding citizens to arm themselves is not the same as arming every kid with a gang mentality. Honestly, legal guns here are very expensive and cant be had by most criminal wanna-be's legally. They usually resort to theft...
I'm guessing that as time goes on, some criminals will realize that those sleepy little towns you have with everyone un-armed are easy marks for home invasions (theft/rape), and car jackings. It’s almost inevitable.
#7
11-06-2009, 10:16 AM
#8
11-06-2009, 10:59 AM
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"If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns."
Glad to hear they are finally makin some sense over there. It is a proven fact (at the very least a trend) that countries that outlaw firearms see a substantial increase in the crime rate. Australia for instance, look up their rates pre/post ban. If normal law abiding citizens are allowed to protect themselves, criminals are given another thing to worry about... Is granny packin or not?
I have carried a gun since i could legally do so. and i have had to pull it once with the intention of using it. didnt have to fire but still scared the SHYT outta me. But i will do it everytime if it means my wife and son go home and bad guy goes cold.
I often hear the question, "Why do you feel the need to carry a gun?"
Thats why, i cant live without that smile.
ill get off the soapbox now i guess.
-sparks-
Glad to hear they are finally makin some sense over there. It is a proven fact (at the very least a trend) that countries that outlaw firearms see a substantial increase in the crime rate. Australia for instance, look up their rates pre/post ban. If normal law abiding citizens are allowed to protect themselves, criminals are given another thing to worry about... Is granny packin or not?
I have carried a gun since i could legally do so. and i have had to pull it once with the intention of using it. didnt have to fire but still scared the SHYT outta me. But i will do it everytime if it means my wife and son go home and bad guy goes cold.
I often hear the question, "Why do you feel the need to carry a gun?"
Thats why, i cant live without that smile.
ill get off the soapbox now i guess.
-sparks-
#9
11-06-2009, 11:31 AM
Jules, comparing where you live to Liverpool is like me comparing Durban to Colenso in the Great Karoo.
A week ago last Friday, a man was shot at the end of my road, about 40 yards from my front door.....Why ?
Three carjackers wanted his VW Caravelle.
End result, One robber dead, one took two rounds in his head bur was still alive last I heard, and unfortunately the owner of the Caravelle was shot (in the back) but after taking out the Jackers he collapsed, and died later. He also was able to shoot 5 rounds into the getaway car that the last jacker ran away in.(I heard all the rounds go off, about 30 or so from my bathroom)
The whole point of this diatribe is that if someone wants something you have, and they think you can't defend yourself, chances are that you will have a problem. Here in SA with the strict gun laws, law abiding citizens find it hard to legally obtain a firearm (can take up to 2 years for a licence) In the past it was a lot easier..................
My opinion on this is that if you allow WHO can legally buy weapons (psychological tests and proficience) the chances of you needing to ever needing to use it will decrease in direct proportion .
The man shot didn't live here, he was about to clean the carpets in a local house..........
We need two things here
1 More firearms for law-abiding citizens
2 The death penalty (preferably in public, on payday so there's a real message)
I see so much crime (not surprising really
and when you allow the wildwest to take over and not allow your police to even defend themselves, things are in a bad way.
FWIW The Brit Bobby (my late Uncle was one) should now be armed. There is no rule of law or respect for the police.
A week ago last Friday, a man was shot at the end of my road, about 40 yards from my front door.....Why ?
Three carjackers wanted his VW Caravelle.
End result, One robber dead, one took two rounds in his head bur was still alive last I heard, and unfortunately the owner of the Caravelle was shot (in the back) but after taking out the Jackers he collapsed, and died later. He also was able to shoot 5 rounds into the getaway car that the last jacker ran away in.(I heard all the rounds go off, about 30 or so from my bathroom)
The whole point of this diatribe is that if someone wants something you have, and they think you can't defend yourself, chances are that you will have a problem. Here in SA with the strict gun laws, law abiding citizens find it hard to legally obtain a firearm (can take up to 2 years for a licence) In the past it was a lot easier..................
My opinion on this is that if you allow WHO can legally buy weapons (psychological tests and proficience) the chances of you needing to ever needing to use it will decrease in direct proportion .
The man shot didn't live here, he was about to clean the carpets in a local house..........
We need two things here
1 More firearms for law-abiding citizens
2 The death penalty (preferably in public, on payday so there's a real message)
I see so much crime (not surprising really
and when you allow the wildwest to take over and not allow your police to even defend themselves, things are in a bad way.FWIW The Brit Bobby (my late Uncle was one) should now be armed. There is no rule of law or respect for the police.
Last edited by Shadow; 11-06-2009 at 11:34 AM.
