Prepping for ICE riding
#11
12-10-2009, 04:33 PM
The lack of positive feedback is prolly a subconscious reaction to what you're contemplating. Basically its something most of us have never considered mostly because we still want our bikes 
Not saying that you don't want yours. But in my case at least, the only way I'd even consider researching something like that to my bike is if I knew I'd never ride her again and refused to sell her. It'd be the final, extravagant farewell to an old friend. If it worked, great. But if it did work, she'd be in the garage with all the modifications left still on her. Waiting for that one month next year when it'd be safe to do it again.
Not saying that you don't want yours. But in my case at least, the only way I'd even consider researching something like that to my bike is if I knew I'd never ride her again and refused to sell her. It'd be the final, extravagant farewell to an old friend. If it worked, great. But if it did work, she'd be in the garage with all the modifications left still on her. Waiting for that one month next year when it'd be safe to do it again.
#13
12-11-2009, 06:11 PM
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Wow.To all the "it won't work", "you'll fall down at best", "good luck with that", etc. heres a preemtive "get lost". We rocked that **** like nobody else has (for a first time out, no experience), for its sake we could have competed in a class and chose not to. So before you say anything about the vids, think about what I just said. For the people interested in what I am going on and on about, refer to the vids below.
First night out, first time on the ice (with a bike) ever! The vid gets repetative quickly, don't be afraid to shut it off and move to the next one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIdVUNiix9E"]YouTube TOC chaos has a new name!
Second time out, got the feel for it, rocked the heck out of it! Power slides rule! Again, it gets repetative, if your into it, and you watch the whole thing, there is a few front end lock up's, a few big slappers, and alot of high speed backing it in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE2QK5BBnKs"]YouTube TocMadMan
Top (ice) speed attained on 4 inches of snow over the ice with 1/4" Cold Kutter studs, it gets up on the top of the snow at speed and walks around alot, the highest speed reached was 138mph, pretty epic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN_Ufo53PNE"]YouTube TocTuning CBR Ice top speed 005
The 2nd sick one, 2nd best in my opinion, maybie it rules cuz I'm riding in some of it, hard to tell when it's me, but the standup powerslides, the hard core backing it in, and the insane "power slide blind spot check", yeah, all my little bro.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWi-PrmBWyg"]YouTube TocIceRide3
Then the donuts, pretty cool how the Rat-Bastard-Fighter-Bee*R (Bee*R's ice trim name) can be ridden in any way, any time, by this psycho, known to most as "Toc" (like "tick-toc goes the clock"), known to me as "lil' bro" or "Travis".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFVcjOx7BPg"]YouTube Motorcycle donuts! Well, 3/4 at a time. :-p
The final one, the best one, the one that proved competition is possible, Toc Ice- The final Vid. Absolutly a must see video, if you don't watch it, your missing out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y6SRIjbhio"]YouTube Toc Ice Final Vid
We did the Radar Drags (1000ft speed trap on ice), 85mph all day, but the nitrous injected, turbo charged, high octane burning radar drag sled at the end of the vid was insane!! Worth seeing, even more worth watching in person! The promise of the GPz at the end is a sad sight I just noticed... there is always next year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB1AyhioMs8"]YouTube CBR Radar Drag
And the test for the Radar Drags, the first night out, a clip from the first posted vid,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hnfp17AE_s"]YouTube- F3 Ice Drag
Still want to discuss the outcome? If you don't know then why give 2 worthless cents? This guy "Daf" got ahold of me on youtube, refered me to this thread, and now your giving the guy greif about something you can't speak from personal experience about? For shame. For the narrow minded, maybie you should read all about this small and probably never growing sport called "Ice Road Racing". http://www.iceroadracing.net/
The dynamics between a sportbike and a full on MX bike are identical, they both operate in the 3rd dimension on a gyro principal. It's basic physics from how I have understood it. 2 wheels and an engine regardless of the chassis or tire type behaves in a very strict manner and if you can manipulate it in the circumstances given weather it be rain slicked asphalt, deep sand, or for this matter, cold cutter studs in wide road slicks on ice, your still operating under the same principals of motorcycle physics.
Respect for the slippery rear end, touchy brakes, and overall lower limits of riding on ice with a sportbike improves a rider greatly. It sheds light on the dark so to speak. Have you ever hit lean angle and gotten totally sideways, rolled the throttle down to prevent a high side, and came out of it rear tire smoking and everyone cleaning out their drawers but you? I thought so. It is better than the track by far in "on the limit" bike control. You will find the track to be a much more fun experience when you know exactly how to deal with certian behavior from the chassis.
I say do it, but make it a dedicated track machine to be doing it. Ice tires and guards in the winter, full bodywork and slicks in the summer. I garuntee the results will astonish you, your friends, and most importantly the grass roots sponsors you may hope to attract when you discover this new found skill, control, and understanding of your machine and yourself as a rider.
Studs and pattern, I'll happily pass out the info if anyone is interested in doing this EVER. More fun than you can ever imagine.
http://picasaweb.google.com/GrimmRid...R600F3IceRacer
That is all.
-CBRonICE
#14
12-12-2009, 03:31 PM
Chit wish I had an ice bike after seeing this ...............very frickken cool
beats the **** outta ice fishing .........lol
Now I'm looking for a salvage street bike to do this ........plenty of ice lakes
around here
My neighbor has a turbo sled that tops out around 160 ........frickken insane sick machine
beats the **** outta ice fishing .........lol
Now I'm looking for a salvage street bike to do this ........plenty of ice lakes
around here
My neighbor has a turbo sled that tops out around 160 ........frickken insane sick machine
Last edited by Sprock; 12-12-2009 at 04:50 PM.
#15
12-13-2009, 10:00 AM
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If you have ridden in the rain (what truelly passionate rider hasn't?) you have experienced the same surface behavior. Only diffrence is that the ice is consistent. Like I specified, the vehicle dynamics DO NOT change. Your only working with less lean angle (not much less than rain slick road) and more abundant traction without the worry of an instant lowside from standing water.
This is safer than the "track", by far, for learning how a sportbike truelly behaves. Even a open class sport machine off craigslist for a few hundred bucks, cleaning up the carbs, and studding up the tires works just fine to get a handle on this and experience it to it's fullest. Despite arguement, a smaller more agile bike does not give the same "feel" of a full on 380+lb sportbike on wide tires.
Example bike that could be used strictly for ice riding. Gobs of torque, big top end pull, very forgiving suspension, and brakes that won't put you down instantly. Not to mention the status of such a machine in the motorcycle world would gain recognition in and of itself as an ice racer. It would sure be the only one! And btw, it isn't my bike, no assosiation to the owner, I wouldn't even suggest looking into it (seems there is problems with it, it's just an example of what to look for for a good ice bike, the CBR is just not that good for the ice when compared, not half as forgiving)
http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/mcy/1505786851.html
I personally was looking into prepping my buddys '81 GL1100 (naked) but time and money became an issue, and the original F3 from the video's was going to get XR250 suspension and wheels for a flat tracker setup for the ice, but again, time and money stood in the way.
Anyone interested in this, I am willing to share ANY information you could possibly need, from where to get studs and how much it will cost, to how to wrap the tires to protect the studs and transport the machine.
I'm an open book.
CBRonICE
This is safer than the "track", by far, for learning how a sportbike truelly behaves. Even a open class sport machine off craigslist for a few hundred bucks, cleaning up the carbs, and studding up the tires works just fine to get a handle on this and experience it to it's fullest. Despite arguement, a smaller more agile bike does not give the same "feel" of a full on 380+lb sportbike on wide tires.
Example bike that could be used strictly for ice riding. Gobs of torque, big top end pull, very forgiving suspension, and brakes that won't put you down instantly. Not to mention the status of such a machine in the motorcycle world would gain recognition in and of itself as an ice racer. It would sure be the only one! And btw, it isn't my bike, no assosiation to the owner, I wouldn't even suggest looking into it (seems there is problems with it, it's just an example of what to look for for a good ice bike, the CBR is just not that good for the ice when compared, not half as forgiving)
http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/mcy/1505786851.html
I personally was looking into prepping my buddys '81 GL1100 (naked) but time and money became an issue, and the original F3 from the video's was going to get XR250 suspension and wheels for a flat tracker setup for the ice, but again, time and money stood in the way.
Anyone interested in this, I am willing to share ANY information you could possibly need, from where to get studs and how much it will cost, to how to wrap the tires to protect the studs and transport the machine.
I'm an open book.
CBRonICE
#16
12-13-2009, 11:58 AM
#17
12-13-2009, 11:19 PM
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Ok, this is a cut and paste that I sent to Daf over youtube.
***
http://picasaweb.google.com/GrimmRid...R600F3IceRacer
The stud pattern is the deciding factor on how this will work. You have to understand too that with nearly 1500 cold cutter studs your going to be adding about 15 pounds to the front wheel and 20 or so to the rear wheel (all unsprung mass) and you will have to run a lower tire pressure than the street would call for.
Your going to need some take off's or something to cut for liners, my brother used the centers of a a pair of 16" Dunlop GT501's that were on his GPz600R. Trimming the treaded section out of the tires provides a great liner for stud stability and helps them to not pull out or puncture the inner tubes you have to run since your punching nearly 1500 holes into the tires. lol
The pics provide a great refrence to stud pattern for oval and circuit riding. The main concern here is cutting up some inner tubes and using a little duct or gorilla tape to secure them between the liners and tube that will go in eventually, we ended up not running a tube liner and only the tire liner and a stud punched a hole in the tube on the rear so we ran a flat studded tire for most of the winter. It sucked not having rear tire pressure, make sure you put a good barrier inbetween the inner tube and studs!
For mounting, a very big secret nobody told us is that you need to just throw a few studs down the center of the tire with the liner in it to secure the liner and get an idea of the amount of stud screw that will possibly be sticking out of the inside, then you can assess the liner issue's you may run into with mounting. Also finding liner width and changing it accordingly before filling the tire with studs and making it nearly impossible to mount them. Our local shop managed to get fully studded tires on the rims but they said "Never again!" unless we just secure the liner and then add the studs when it is fully assembled with the tube, liner, and tire in place on the rim.
As in engine protection, we ran none, low sided twice, but didn't even scratch the radiator, the clipon, rear set, and lower engine case takes the hit. Hard to believe, and we were even suprised! But keep a spare clutch and brake lever around when your doing this! They will not like being bent in sub zero temps!
I think I covered alot of the needs and secrets to this.
***
If the liner is too wide, it will make it too hard to stretch the tire onto a rim and you can possibly end up with a bend as my brother did in the front. A few studs around the outside and center gives an idea of depth and also gives ZERO stud flex and stud "pull out" to have the liner secured so EVERY stud penatrates the liner properly. Cut the liner twice if you have to, it's worth the time it takes. The stiffer the tire the deeper angle possible in full lean!!
Yeah, in the above message you read that right, there was ZERO pressure in the rear tire in those video's from 1st test to the final video! How about that? Pretty impressive huh? Pretty stable eh'??!!
And just for the record, 2nd gear was LONG gone on those vids, he was skipping it alltogether and just using 1st and 3rd (sometimes 4th and 5th) with a -1 front sprocket and +3 rear sprocket, Shinko 003 Stealth Slicks front and rear, 1500 or so 1/4" cold cutter studs, and the knowledge of motorcycle behavior and the mind to back off when it gets hairy.
We bent the clutch lever slightly trying to do donuts, so, really it was just our fault, not so much the setup at all. Not sure why I never released that part to youtube.
Anything else you want to know? I'm kinda buzzed, had a few beers, and can't tell if I left anything out.
C.o.I.
And for giggles, the bike AFTER the ice riding, still felt just fine. Since 2nd gear was gone and the chain let go on a track day and overall the bike is TOO much for dirty public roads (all that power up top and nowhere to use it) so the suspension got swapped onto a 1985 GPz600R, aka "Zed". Feels like it's brand new, even for an '85, the CBR frame and engine are still sitting there on the shelf, awaiting 600RR running gear and some transmission work, maybie some day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYU3lAkXgeQ
And "Zed", too bad this isn't getting ridden on the ice this year! Hey, it's CBR parts! Alot of them! Can you spot them all?
***
http://picasaweb.google.com/GrimmRid...R600F3IceRacer
The stud pattern is the deciding factor on how this will work. You have to understand too that with nearly 1500 cold cutter studs your going to be adding about 15 pounds to the front wheel and 20 or so to the rear wheel (all unsprung mass) and you will have to run a lower tire pressure than the street would call for.
Your going to need some take off's or something to cut for liners, my brother used the centers of a a pair of 16" Dunlop GT501's that were on his GPz600R. Trimming the treaded section out of the tires provides a great liner for stud stability and helps them to not pull out or puncture the inner tubes you have to run since your punching nearly 1500 holes into the tires. lol
The pics provide a great refrence to stud pattern for oval and circuit riding. The main concern here is cutting up some inner tubes and using a little duct or gorilla tape to secure them between the liners and tube that will go in eventually, we ended up not running a tube liner and only the tire liner and a stud punched a hole in the tube on the rear so we ran a flat studded tire for most of the winter. It sucked not having rear tire pressure, make sure you put a good barrier inbetween the inner tube and studs!
For mounting, a very big secret nobody told us is that you need to just throw a few studs down the center of the tire with the liner in it to secure the liner and get an idea of the amount of stud screw that will possibly be sticking out of the inside, then you can assess the liner issue's you may run into with mounting. Also finding liner width and changing it accordingly before filling the tire with studs and making it nearly impossible to mount them. Our local shop managed to get fully studded tires on the rims but they said "Never again!" unless we just secure the liner and then add the studs when it is fully assembled with the tube, liner, and tire in place on the rim.
As in engine protection, we ran none, low sided twice, but didn't even scratch the radiator, the clipon, rear set, and lower engine case takes the hit. Hard to believe, and we were even suprised! But keep a spare clutch and brake lever around when your doing this! They will not like being bent in sub zero temps!
I think I covered alot of the needs and secrets to this.
***
If the liner is too wide, it will make it too hard to stretch the tire onto a rim and you can possibly end up with a bend as my brother did in the front. A few studs around the outside and center gives an idea of depth and also gives ZERO stud flex and stud "pull out" to have the liner secured so EVERY stud penatrates the liner properly. Cut the liner twice if you have to, it's worth the time it takes. The stiffer the tire the deeper angle possible in full lean!!
Yeah, in the above message you read that right, there was ZERO pressure in the rear tire in those video's from 1st test to the final video! How about that? Pretty impressive huh? Pretty stable eh'??!!
And just for the record, 2nd gear was LONG gone on those vids, he was skipping it alltogether and just using 1st and 3rd (sometimes 4th and 5th) with a -1 front sprocket and +3 rear sprocket, Shinko 003 Stealth Slicks front and rear, 1500 or so 1/4" cold cutter studs, and the knowledge of motorcycle behavior and the mind to back off when it gets hairy.
We bent the clutch lever slightly trying to do donuts, so, really it was just our fault, not so much the setup at all. Not sure why I never released that part to youtube.
Anything else you want to know? I'm kinda buzzed, had a few beers, and can't tell if I left anything out.
C.o.I.
And for giggles, the bike AFTER the ice riding, still felt just fine. Since 2nd gear was gone and the chain let go on a track day and overall the bike is TOO much for dirty public roads (all that power up top and nowhere to use it) so the suspension got swapped onto a 1985 GPz600R, aka "Zed". Feels like it's brand new, even for an '85, the CBR frame and engine are still sitting there on the shelf, awaiting 600RR running gear and some transmission work, maybie some day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYU3lAkXgeQ
And "Zed", too bad this isn't getting ridden on the ice this year! Hey, it's CBR parts! Alot of them! Can you spot them all?
Last edited by CBRonICE; 12-13-2009 at 11:32 PM.
#18
12-14-2009, 08:48 AM
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#20
12-14-2009, 11:17 AM
p.s. I still say you're better off with an old junker dirtbike. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MY6W0QE6QY&feature=fvw
Sounds like you're seeing that a bit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MY6W0QE6QY&feature=fvw
Sounds like you're seeing that a bit: