Average life expectancy of a clutch
#31
09-10-2009 | 12:56 PM
^^ Precisely, joe.
Your definitiion of moly is exactly right, and it will cause a clutch not to "grab".
HOWEVER, there are a couple of forms of moly. One being soluble moly, and one not (powdered moly).
The powdered moly is the one you're really supposed to watch out for, whereas the soluble doesn't have the same effect. This is based on what I've read, and also why some moto oils still contain moly despite it being "bad" for clutches.
There is also supposed to be ppm range that you shouldn't exceed, no matter what form it's in. I think that number is generally 300ppm or something.
Your definitiion of moly is exactly right, and it will cause a clutch not to "grab".
HOWEVER, there are a couple of forms of moly. One being soluble moly, and one not (powdered moly).
The powdered moly is the one you're really supposed to watch out for, whereas the soluble doesn't have the same effect. This is based on what I've read, and also why some moto oils still contain moly despite it being "bad" for clutches.
There is also supposed to be ppm range that you shouldn't exceed, no matter what form it's in. I think that number is generally 300ppm or something.
Last edited by kilgoretrout; 09-10-2009 at 01:03 PM.
#32
09-10-2009 | 01:07 PM
Slightly off topic but the stuff about Mobil 1 is news to me (and I always use Mobil 1):
Engine oil additives:
You may have heard the commercial or seen the ad:
PTFE is a solid which is added to engine oil and coats the moving parts of the engine.
In 1997, three subsidiaries of Quaker State Corp. (the makers of Slick 50) settled Federal Trade Commission charges that ads for Quaker State's Slick 50 Engine Treatment were false and unsubstantiated. According to the FTC complaint, claims such as the following made in Slick 50 ads falsely represented that without Slick 50, auto engines generally have little or no protection from wear at start-up and commonly experience premature failure caused by wear:
If you use a synthetic oil, such as Mobil 1, you are advised not to use any engine treatments or additives. Mobil claims that
Engine oil additives:
Slick 50 and other engine oil additives supposedly reduce engine wear and increase fuel efficiency.
You may have heard the commercial or seen the ad:
Multiple tests by independent laboratories have shown that when properly applied to an automotive engine, Slick 50 Engine Formula reduces wear on engine parts. Test results have shown that Slick 50 treated engines sustained 50 percent less wear than test engines run with premium motor oil alone.
There are about 50 other products on the market which make similar claims, many of them being just duplicate products under different names from the same company. The price for a pint or quart of these engine oil additives runs from a few dollars to more than $20. Do these products do any good? Not much. Do they do any harm. Sometimes. What's in these miracle lubricants, anyway? If they're so wonderful, why don't car manufacturers recommend their usage? Why don't oil companies get into the additive business? Where are these studies mentioned by Petrolon (Slick 50)? Probably in the same file cabinet as the tobacco company studies proving the health benefits of smoking.
The basic ingredient is the same in most of these additives: 50 weight engine oil with standard additives. The magic ingredient in Slick 50, Liquid Ring, Matrix, QM1 and T-Plus from K-Mart is Polytetrafluoroethylene. Don't try to pronounce it: call it PTFE. But don't call it Teflon, which is what it is, because that is a registered trademark. Dupont, who invented Teflon, claims that "Teflon is not useful as an ingredient in oil additives or oils used for internal combustion engines." But what do they know? They haven't seen the secret studies done by Petrolon (Slick 50).
PTFE is a solid which is added to engine oil and coats the moving parts of the engine.
However, such solids seem even more inclined to coat non-moving parts, like oil passages and filters. After all, if it can build up under the pressures and friction exerted on a cylinder wall, then it stands to reason it should build up even better in places with low pressures and virtually no friction.
This conclusion seems to be borne out by tests on oil additives containing PTFE conducted by the NASA Lewis Research Center, which said in their report, "In the types of bearing surface contact we have looked at, we have seen no benefit. In some cases we have seen detrimental effect. The solids in the oil tend to accumulate at inlets and act as a dam, which simply blocks the oil from entering. Instead of helping, it is actually depriving parts of lubricant" (Rau).
In defense of Slick 50, tests done on a Chevy 6 cylinder engine by the University of Utah Engineering Experiment Station found that after treatment with the PTFE additive the test engine's friction was reduced by 13.1 percent, the output horsepower increased from 5.3 percent to 8.1 percent, and fuel economy improved as well. Unfortunately, the same tests concluded that "There was a pressure drop across the oil filter resulting from possible clogging of small passageways." Oil analysis showed that iron contamination doubled after the treatment, indicating that engine wear increased (Rau).This conclusion seems to be borne out by tests on oil additives containing PTFE conducted by the NASA Lewis Research Center, which said in their report, "In the types of bearing surface contact we have looked at, we have seen no benefit. In some cases we have seen detrimental effect. The solids in the oil tend to accumulate at inlets and act as a dam, which simply blocks the oil from entering. Instead of helping, it is actually depriving parts of lubricant" (Rau).
the FTC and Slick 50
In 1997, three subsidiaries of Quaker State Corp. (the makers of Slick 50) settled Federal Trade Commission charges that ads for Quaker State's Slick 50 Engine Treatment were false and unsubstantiated. According to the FTC complaint, claims such as the following made in Slick 50 ads falsely represented that without Slick 50, auto engines generally have little or no protection from wear at start-up and commonly experience premature failure caused by wear:
"Every time you cold start your car without Slick 50 protection, metal grinds against metal in your engine."
"With each turn of the ignition you do unseen damage, because at cold start-up most of the oil is down in the pan. But Slick 50's unique chemistry bonds to engine parts. It reduces wear up to 50% for 50,000 miles."
"What makes Slick 50 Automotive Engine Formula different is an advanced chemical support package designed to bond a specially activated PTFE to the metal in your engine."
In fact, the FTC said, "most automobile engines are adequately protected from wear at start-up when they use motor oil as recommended in the owner's manual. Moreover, it is uncommon for engines to experience premature failure caused by wear, whether they have been treated with Slick 50 or not." "With each turn of the ignition you do unseen damage, because at cold start-up most of the oil is down in the pan. But Slick 50's unique chemistry bonds to engine parts. It reduces wear up to 50% for 50,000 miles."
"What makes Slick 50 Automotive Engine Formula different is an advanced chemical support package designed to bond a specially activated PTFE to the metal in your engine."
zinc: good for the common cold & your car's engine
Another type of additive is zinc dialkyldithiophosphate. Zinc-d is found in Mechanics Brand Engine Tune Up, K Mart Super Oil Treatment, and STP Engine Treatment With XEP2, among others. The touting of zinc-d as a special ingredient in engine oil additives is a little like the Shell ads which touted "Platformate." (Most gasoline has similar additives but under different names.) Zinc-d is an additive in most, if not all, major oil brands. The wonder oils just put more of the stuff in a 50 weight engine oil. It would be useful if your engine were ever operated under extremely abnormal conditions where metal contacts metal: "the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent scuffing, particularly between cylinder bores and piston rings....unless you plan on spending a couple of hours dragging your knee at Laguna Seca, adding extra zinc compounds to your oil is usually a waste.... Also, keep in mind that high zinc content can lead to deposit formation on your valves, and spark plug fouling" (Rau).
If zinc-d is so good for your engine, why haven't oil manufacturers been putting more of it in their standard mix of oil and additives? Actually, oil companies have been decreasing the amount of zinc-d because the evidence indicates that zinc-d causes deterioration of catalytic converters.
The bottom line is that outside of the testimonials of happy and satisfied customers and the guarantees of company executives about the wonderful effects that studies have shown will follow the use of their products, there isn't much support for using oil additives. Of course, there are those millions of customers who buy the stuff: aren't they proof that these things really work? Not really. They're proof that this stuff really sells!
cleansed, not coated
On the other side of the engine block are those additives which will cleanse your engine, not coat it. Stuff like Bardahl, Rislone and Marvel Mystery Oil claim they can make your engine run quieter and smoother, and reduce oil burning. These are products which contain solvents or detergents such as kerosene, naphthalene, xylene, acetone or isopropanol. If used properly, I suppose these products will strip off your Teflon and zinc protective coatings! But unless you have a really old and abused car, you probably have no need of stripping away sludge and deposits from your engine. Thus, you probably have no need for these wonder cleaners. If you overuse such products you can damage your engine by promoting metal to metal contact.
If you use a synthetic oil, such as Mobil 1, you are advised not to use any engine treatments or additives. Mobil claims that
The use of an engine oil additive is not recommended, either by Mobil or by virtually any vehicle manufacturer. In fact, it may void your new-car warranty.
Finally, you may have seen the commercial where two engines are allowed to run without any oil in them and the one which had the special oil additive keeps on ticking after the other engine has conked out. This may be appealing to the car owner who never changes his or her oil or who runs his or her car without oil, but it should be of little interest to the person who knows how to take care of their automobile. Should you invest in something like Tufoil? It is touted as being "a super-suspension of micro-miniature PTFE particles and soluble Molybdenum, permanently suspended in oil." And, it will not clog filters or oil openings, according to the manufacturer. Or, how about Lubrilon, which contain a nylon polymer that will coat your metal parts? Or Bishop's Original Permafused Lubrication™, which also coats your metal parts with an anti-wear lubricant film? It's your money, but I think you'd be better off if you just changed your oil and oil filter regularly. And don't forget to change the fuel and air filters at the recommended intervals. We can't say for sure that these new products do no good, but what good they might do is probably not necessary or of much value for the average vehicle owner who takes proper care of the vehicle.
#33
09-10-2009 | 01:15 PM
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From: Republic of Boon Island
#36
09-10-2009 | 06:53 PM
Truth is, Nobody ever taught me any of that down deep in the motor stuff. I know a lot more about car engines, but because I have seen how they work. These engines are still mysterious to me.
#37
09-10-2009 | 07:04 PM
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Administrator, MVN / ROTM NOV 2012
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From: Republic of Boon Island
Fair enough Joe, everyone learns ..........no problem with that at all.......the fundamental
mechanics other than perhaps the drivetrain are really essentially the same.
Anyhow Dean0 .....ya got me all worked up about the moly thing..........after
extensive research it turns out Delo uses moDTC or soluble moly which is also
used in bike specific oils .
moS2 or powdered moly used in certain other lubricants is the one that causes
slippage of motorcycle clutch plates.
BTW Honda GN4 has 50 ppm moDTC
Mobil 1 Syn 15w 50 has 90 ppm moDTC
Sportbike ........oils and analysis
mechanics other than perhaps the drivetrain are really essentially the same.
Anyhow Dean0 .....ya got me all worked up about the moly thing..........after
extensive research it turns out Delo uses moDTC or soluble moly which is also
used in bike specific oils .
moS2 or powdered moly used in certain other lubricants is the one that causes
slippage of motorcycle clutch plates.
BTW Honda GN4 has 50 ppm moDTC
Mobil 1 Syn 15w 50 has 90 ppm moDTC
Sportbike ........oils and analysis
Last edited by Sprock; 09-10-2009 at 07:23 PM.
#39
09-10-2009 | 07:36 PM
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Administrator, MVN / ROTM NOV 2012
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From: Republic of Boon Island
nah actually I'm blasting down to work on it in the am , just had it out gassing up
for tomorrow and tried to get it to break free in gear with the new Delo
Never happened..........so we'll see I plan to try again out on 95 on my ride in to work
When it did it the other day it was coming up off an on ramp in 4th with the hammer
down pushing her to the max...........we'll see tomorrow after I get her nice and hot
if it will do the same
Either way it's getting a clutch job as I did not have it for the first 15 k miles and
I have a nice trip planned in a few weeks from ME into NH and VT for leaf peeping
season and I don't need any surprises
for tomorrow and tried to get it to break free in gear with the new Delo
Never happened..........so we'll see I plan to try again out on 95 on my ride in to work
When it did it the other day it was coming up off an on ramp in 4th with the hammer
down pushing her to the max...........we'll see tomorrow after I get her nice and hot
if it will do the same
Either way it's getting a clutch job as I did not have it for the first 15 k miles and
I have a nice trip planned in a few weeks from ME into NH and VT for leaf peeping
season and I don't need any surprises
#40
09-11-2009 | 02:41 AM
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 649
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From: Preston, UK
Now where the hell do i get hold of WD40 in 5 litre containers ???? - haha