i don't think my bars ever make it back to neutral in the process of a turn... they are always counter steering?? ha ill double check on the ride tomorrow.

 

I think you need to remember you are on a forum. A place that is full of peoples opinions, and very little facts. You started a thread and gave a very, very vague answer. Im not sure why you are suprised or offended that someone has a different opinion than what you posted. I also do not feel the profile of the tires has much to do with countersteering. Sure, the profile of the tires keep rubber in contact throughout the lean, but thats about it. A sharper profile will certainly allow a bike to fall into the corner quicker because of a sharper radius, which means less area to cover as the bike leans, so the drop in is quicker.

My question to you is, if tire profile was truly the reason, how do the big touring bikes that use regular car tires turn? Honestly, they use completely flat across car tires, and they lean into corners. Or what about severly wornout tires that have major flat spots on them. wouldn't they not be able to start the lean?

Im not a scientist, and quite frankly, do not fully understand why countersteering works. But there is more to it than just tires. Also, I do know that once your into a lean, your handlebars do in fact come back to towards center once your in the lean angle you want. Maybe not all the way, but certainly not as extreme as they are for the initial turn in. If you your into a tighten radius turn, a little more countersteer will lean the bike more again. I think patches statement here is correct. Maybe misunderstood, but you do in fact begin to turn back into the turn, not past center, but back into the turn towards center.

Having said that. Not all bikes are the same. the steering geomtry on certain bikes can require constant substantial force to keep the bike leaned over. if it were only the profile of the tires, every bike would lean the same. If you have been on many different models of bikes, you will know that some bikes fall into corners while others require a lot force to get them there, and then force to keep them there. Also, I've ridden cruisers that require you to keep a constant pressure on the outside handlebar in a turn to prevent the handlebar from countersteering too much.

So with that. I don't think patches is completely wrong in his statements, other than the car thing which maybe his point was just misunderstood.

Again, just another opinion that is different than yours. Certainly not trying to start anything other than a discussion. you did after all say you would answer questions. The funny part is. Most racer's and experts do not fully understand why countersteering works. It just does..

 

Well, classically speaking, the velocity of the edge of the tire is different then the velocity of the middle. They should have the same angular velocity though.

Also, centrifugal force is a fictitious force, but that's a horse of a different displacement...

If I were to add my own two cents, I'd say that when the tires start to rotate at any kind of significant speed, it creates a force radially towards the center of the wheels. The faster the wheel spins, the higher that force becomes, which is why it feels heavier to turn in when you go at speed. Because of this, it becomes difficult to just turn the wheel to turn. Try it out.

After watching some videos on youtube, I'd say that the tires are at best neutral when they turn. I haven't seen any noticable deflection into the turn. Go watch some motogp videos. If you find one that show's the wheel obviously deflecting towards the turn, please let me know.

I think the best answer is a crazy love-child between the two opposing ideas. At low speeds you turn the handle bars. At higher speeds, you turn with a mixture weight and geometry.

 

Didn't the video link I posted the other day to Keith Code's No B.S. Machine show that simply leaning will not cause a bike to turn? You have to turn the bars slightly to get it to deviate from a straight line.

 

I hate to resurrect this thread, but I'm afraid I must.
My original intention was to share a golden nugget of information that helped me understand counter steering. When patches posted his argument saying I was wrong I was immediately on the defensive and went into attack mode. Inexcusable, I know, and for that I'd like to apologize to patches and the readers of this forum.
I've spent hours thumbing through literally hundreds of old motorcycle magazines trying to find the article that I got that info from, and have been unable to do so. Not one to give up easily, I sent an inquiry to the experts at SPORT RIDER magazine to either confirm or deny the theory that I posted here. In addition, I've watched countless videos and read several web pages discussing counter steering and motorcycle handling and have come to the conclusion that I was wrong. The information I posted was a gross over-simplification of what truly happens when we steer our bikes. As stated by kuroshio, the actual dynamics of motorcycle steering get quite complicated and as justasquid pointed out, most racers and experts don't fully understand or agree how or why it works.
So, once again, I apologize for the misinformation, my attitude, and for wasting the time of those who read this post.
PS: Admins, If you wanted to delete this entire thread, it certainly wouldn't hurt my feelings!

 

No hard feelings here, sparkman. Looks like I was corrected on a few things as well. Personally, I don't think this thread is a waste of time for us or anyone else who might pass by it later. It's good information to know.

Did Sport Rider get back to you about the topic? What did they say?

 

Thanks for being a good sport, patches. Yes, SR did respond.http://forums.sportrider.com/70/8479...ing/index.html