front wheel lock-up when downshifting ? pls help !
 

good day,


I`m a pretty new rider (for about 4 months). So far I had the chance to test some bike models, like a Yamaha R1 for about 3 weeks and a Buell 1200 for the same time, and a Daytona.

Now I own a Honda CBR 600 from 2008, and I love this bike, looks and feel :), but lately when i was trying to improve my downshifting and braking riding skills I started to notice some very strange noise and manifestations.

Every time I downshift fast (at high speeds, like going into first gear at about 65 km/h) and use the read brake/ front brake at the same time, the bike makes a very very strange noise, like bonking, and in the meantime the fork bonks up and down pretty hard and fast (like a swift tremble) – it gives the feeling that the front wheel may lock-up any second.
Ok, so i know that if i don`t blip, the rear wheel may skid or lock, and that would be understandable and ok, but the problem is that this bonking noise it comes from the FRONT wheel (or so it seems, because it may come from the rear or anything else, but I can`t pinpoint it that well)
I have brand new Meltzer M5 tires and brake pods (changed all of them about 2 weeks ago) but the situation remained.

What I noticed is, the bonking noise comes especially if I use the rear brake at the same time as downshifting (also at this time I’m on the front brake pretty hard also). Also the noise it reduced if i blip the throttle a little harder when i downshift.
The bonking and the front fork tremble only happens when I downshift into first gear at pretty high speeds and if i let out the clutch fast (not so gradually) – while braking at the same time.

What I would love to understand is what is going on... because this happens in the worst moments like when i have to do an emergency stop, and while this happens the breaks don`t work that well and also the noise and tremble are scary and I tend to loosen the brakes (front and back) and thus increasing the chance i will not stop in time.


Thank you in advance !

Mate , I approved your thread ....


All the symptoms that you are experiencing are caused by not quite matching the engine revs with your down shifting ....


The harder and the higher speed that you try to down shift , the higher the engine revs you have to keep up " or match " ....


Practice makes perfect !! keep trying it out on a quiet piece of road some where .... and you will get it right ...

Major Axel hop will be the next thing you strike !!! and that can bring you unstuck !!! .... practice all this stuff as I said , on a quiet piece of back road till you figure it all out ....:icon_beerchug:







.............

i wouldnt be downshifting into first for any reason......motorcycles have amazing brakes and its pretty much unnecessary to be downshifting past 2nd

Unless you are coming to a complete stop.... You need to be in first to be able to get away fast in case someone behind you doesn't stop in time.

Now while downshifting to 1st during this stop, I wouldn't let out the clutch.

this was all very useful information indeed, thank you !

I was downshifting into first to practice emergency stops, and i read that it helps to learn to downshift into first. Not sure if what I`m doing was ok.

I still find it strange that none of the CBR 600 users had this tremble+bonking noise, even when testing.
I can make it happen even in second gear sometimes if I let go of the clutch really fast at higher speeds. And the noise especially comes out when rear breaking also.

Anyway thank you for approving my post :) but your advice was not so clear, regarding what I should do or not, or even this is a common problem or if there is something wrong with my bike,

I still get the feeling that the front wheel is locking up and I really do not understand the reason for this (like i said I’m kind of a newb and this may not be the case)

and 1 more thing :)
what is a "Major Axel hop" ? :))

Noob question: If you're worried about panic stops, should you even be downshifting? Just brake and roll off the throttle?

I know what your talking about. Can't really explain ATM as I'm at work. Its not coming from the front end. Its coming from the drivetrain.

You're goin too fast for the gear you downshifted into.

when you downshift into a gear and your rpms are too high the tire wont go as fast as your moving and it will hop like the wheel is actually locked up, then eventually start rolling again. DO NOT ever downshift like that in a turn or you WILL end up on the ground pretty quickly

Your engine is high in the RPM's, you release the clutch(not slowly let it out) correct??? your clutch plate reengages the gears when it is not spinning as fast, thus one has to slow down, one has to speed up to match in the middle or parts would go flying. The noise you are hearing is your transmission/gears catching up/slowing down to match. That is the noise you are hearing. If your forks are "trembling" I take that as they are shaking back and forth really fast, buy a steering damper, or take it to be inspeected.

Trey is right on. ease up or your going to have a bad tranny soon. I personally dont use the rear brakes while engine braking. i like to let the engine have its way with the rear wheel. if it needs to catch up to the rpms braking is going to hinder that.

Thank you Kuroshio!!!! I spent 2 straight weeks focusing on changing my riding habit. I used the rely heavily on engine braking too much. For the past 2 weeks, I've been aggressively testing & practicing my front braking being priority to shed speed. I am amazed what I've been missing all these year....tks agains..

The braking discussion from the f4i section?

Downshifting has its place in a rider's skillset. But for shedding real speed the front brake is more effective, gives more control and opens more options. When i downshift, I'm rarely doing it to manage my speed.

They're a British band from the 90's, surprised you've never heard of them.

Bad bad TK :icon_fryingpan: lol

Axel hop is caused by quite a few things ... but at its core is the fact that the suspension can not take anymore braking that is being applied or acceleration ( wheel spin ) that is being applied ...

If you axle hop your front end!!! ...you will prolly go down in a heap of chit eventually ...

Sorry Steve, you're right, it probably wasn't a very helpful comment was it?

You know the rules tho, "You set them up, I'll knock them down".

Ow I dunno about that so much TK ?.... if the guys are into 90's bands it might be helpful to them ... lolol

Just thought we should leave the How To: Riding Skills forum tidy mate ...
Allot of the new guys tend to read these boards ... and we do not want to be a bad influence on the buggers mate ...now do we ?? lol


Back on topic ... Aside from not being an idiot with your brakes or the throttle ... you can adjust , modify and upgrade suspension and brakes to minimize axle hop .... but that is prolly already been discussed in....
(The braking discussion from the f4i section?) already ...

no need for braking like this unless your at a track. just slow it down use your front and rear brake.like everyone else said cant shift into to low of a gear when goingcertain speeds or it will dramtically slow you down. what your actually doing is preparing your bike to be backed into a turn. not good for a begginner .lol but is fun thing to do

This is how I feel as well, I mostly just downshift because it's a pain to get from 3rd or 4th back to 1st while sitting at a stop light holding the clutch in unlike a truck or car; unless I'm braking late to get in and out of a turn fast of course.

Ever since I read somebody on here's sig (can't remember who right now) I always think "engine braking breaks engines" before I shift too soon. lol

Actually I don't think we got into talking suspension. Figured suspension settings are immaterial when someone is riding on the edge of a lowside due to poor braking skills.

My suspension is set to stock and gets the job done for daily riding / weekend fun :p

Well I did say "Aside from not being an idiot with your brakes or the throttle"

and I have to say, that for you to say ...
"suspension settings are immaterial when someone is riding on the edge of a lowside due to poor braking skills."
...that Is quite wrong! .... suspension types and settings are intrinsically tied to axle hop issues !

Ok if you happen to be inexperienced at heavy breaking methods , well yer , even the best settings and suspension may not save you? ..... but it sure will minimize the risk of excessive axle hop ....that is a fact ...



..........

Couple things:

There is no reason to shift down to 1st at 60+ km/h. At normal street riding this means you would be in third gear. Perhaps second if you like to be higher in the revs.
There is no shifting down in an emergency stop (unless we are talking about a faster stop than normal e.g. light is amber and you won't make it. In that case I'll blip and be in first by the time I have stopped), all you do is pull the clutch in and brake hard but controlled.
Are you perhaps putting slightly more pressure on the (front brake) lever when blipping/braking at the same time. You might also be locking up your rear tire on the hard downshifts. Since there is some play in the chain you might feel a knocking or bumping sensation when it does lock up and skip ever so slightly.

If I come to a corner and there is no real need for braking, I'll blip and downshift, feather the clutch and make sure that I'm smooth. Depending on the corner I might do this for one or two downshifts and rely on a little engine braking. However, when I do this I'm low in the revs. If I come fast to a corner and I blib down whilst higher in the revs, I'm always using the brakes and only feathering the clutch out when rev matched. Don't rely on heaving engine braking when coming in fast, the back might go on a little trip.

Keep working at it though, you'll get it. Did you take the MSF?

Heh Steve in that particular discussion the OP was wondering if his tires were causing the rear to lock when setting up for a turn.

With a little investigating, turns out he was trying to transition from 90 MPH to a 30 MPH turn using downshifting / engine braking only. New tires and a perfect suspension setup wouldn't keep the rubber side down with that technique :p

No chit Sherlock ..... :icon_crackup:lol

Excuse me for just trying to expand on axle hop and the possible related reasons for it ....

:icon_couch: ow well ....



.......

Kuro, can you help clarify when down shifting ( not the purpose of manage speed ) is it only to be in the correct gear for the next maneuver? For excel when needed? I am practicing a lot lately & very surprise how fast I am able to shed speed with only the front brake. ( of course I practice in safe, control environment) I find myself hard to change my old habit of mine. Next thing I realized that I am using downshifting to control speed again. Then I switch to front brake....I think more practice slowly I'll get to 50/50 first, then work my way up. What ratio would you say front brake Vs engine braking is safe? I use to rely on engine brake like 90%/ 10% front brake. After few weeks practice, I think I am at 60/40?

My problem is when I focus on using my front brake more, I tend to forget to down shift gear to collaborate with speed shedding from front brake. i find myself in higher gear for the speed, then had to down 2 gears later....Its hard to describe my question.

ahile,
You just need to slow things down a bit sunshine.
I've just read through this thread for the first time and what's coming over to me is 'Noob trying too hard, riding too fast, thinking wrong!'
You've got yourself a fast bike without the necessary ability or experience to know what to do with it properly.
Just listen to what's been said here (most of it appropriate IMO), slow the **** down for a while and start again from the beginning.
Practice changing gears up and down whilst being in relaxed mode. You don't have to race everywhere you go. Just chill out man!
Practice will make perfect. Trying to go too fast before you can physically and mentally handle it will get you smashed to pieces or at the very least cause undue wear on your drive train.
What really scares me about your opening statement is that you insinuate that you need to perform emergency stops routinely. Let me just put that into perspective for you.
I ride about 20 thousand mils a year. If I have to perform more than one a year I'll consider that I'm doing something wrong. I haven't really slammed on for about three years!
Now, just take it easy, don't think you've got to keep up with everyone else. Let the force be with you Skywalker.
Your clonks and bonks will soon disappear as your technique improves. If you still think you've got a mechanical problem take her into a bike shop for diagnosis. That may cost you no more than a pint for the mechanic.
Sorry if droned on but I can't sleep at night knowing that you may be out there riding so misguidedly. I don't want to see anyone get hurt by their own ignorance/inexperience.
Ride safe eh? Let us know how you get on.

No worries :) I actually never knew ther term nor never had anyone explain it to me like you did. I just knew it was bad when it happened to me and had to muddle my way around it myself :p

Hey that's ok Kuro :-) your a good dude mate ! and you try prolly harder than most on here to help these noobs ...


A few replies have touch on this by saying slow down! , but I am going to be blunt now !!

In regard to that other thread mostly Kuro
ANYONE new to riding a road bike that tries to do 90mph and then slow down to 30 mph that suffers what I do not think that I could duplicate if I tried real hard.!!!... " axle hop the front wheel " and om not sure if that is actually possible under hard front breaking ... locking up yer ! , but hopping the bloody wheel ??? dunno about that ..
ANYWAY , THEY SHOULD NOT BE ON THE BLOODY ROAD YET !!!
...they should be in jail? (for dangerous riding) or back in rider training school , not here asking bloody dum arse questions that we all know the real answer too .....
"he is being A dangerous rider to say the least and prolly being an idiot on the road !!"
bad rider! :icon_fryingpan:, really bad bad rider:icon_fryingpan: !! .... lol

and really this applies to ahile too some what ...

a bonking up and down front end ???? hmmm ... lol


...........

These two comments confuse me. If you took the MSF, then you should know that in an emergency stop on the street, it is IMPERATIVE that you downshift to first gear. What happens when you do come to a stop but then need to move quickly because the car behind you isn't going to stop in time? If you are in first gear, no problem. If you are in fourth gear, you are squished.

I have no idea what they actually teach at current day MSF courses ...

But to just rip the clutch in and try to pull up is the sign of a rider that has very little skill ....and prolly should not be on the road yet ??

In any panic stop situation, it is a combination of rapid gear changing downwards and very heavy braking "primarily at the front" that is the best method ....always has been and always will be !!!
If any rider cannot perorm this basic task?? , they should still be in training !!!

If you try to free wheel (clutch in )and brake heavily at very high speed , you will come unstuck eventually ....


Don't know who told you that ? , but as I said , it is the thing a very inexperienced rider might do ?, but is nothing that a rider that is actually in control of there bike would EVER do !


..........

Are you saying that in a panic stop you should heavily brake and engine brake as well? A combination of rapid gear changing downwards, are you letting out the clutch between downshifts?

I know what they are teaching in MSF courses...I am an instructor. We teach that when making an emergency stop, you pull in the clutch (and keep it in) while rapidly downshifting to 1st gear and braking with BOTH brakes. Doing this effectively takes practice. The rider needs to learn how hard they can brake without locking up either wheel.

i agree with this method.
as a track rider i know how difficult it is to blip the throttle down shift and brake at the same time. as a street rider this is just way too much to be expected to pull of when in an emergency.
I even wonder if u should be using the back brakes at all. On the track u don’t use the rear brakes at all until u become a very good rider. Most track riders will use front brakes only.
I find the back brake to be a tricky subject.
The harder u squeeze the front brakes the less effective the back brakes become. Especially on a sport bike, since the rear tire can easily leave the ground. But I think it is important for a street rider to use the rear brake as a daily tool, so he doesn’t forget to use it when needed. Personally I find myself mostly, using the rear brake when traction is limited, such as in gravel, downhill, or wet conditions.

I would imagine that in new rider school , that method prolly is the easiest for new rider to get a grasp on ... but absolutely yes! , I blip the gas , barely tweek the clutch to down shift at a rapid rate and brake supper heavily all at the same time ...
I would never free wheel at high speed without the engine speed and gears staying in sync with my speed ...

Ok , it may not be easy for a new rider to handle that method , but I personally feel that re teaching a dog a trick once he has learned how to do something potentially the wrong way , may not be a good idea ??


That is just my take on it and may not be right ? and having said that all you new guys listen to your teacher here and free wheel at 100mph while screwing the neck off your brakes in a panic....



om out :-)

take care


....

My 2 cents. This is some good stuff all around,some of it may be way over the head of the rider that posed the question, but still excellent reference.
What I would say is read HenryM's comments closely and without ego Dude. You are fixing to hurt yourself,and buy your mechanic a Mercedes in what will be paid in repair costs.
Your methods and "practicing panic stops" will result in an unexpected "stoppie". If you are a new rider you aint ready for that. Visit uTube for details.
90 to 30. Are you paying attention to your surroundings to have to brake like that? Yes the MSF does teach you to do that to pass the course, but not at 90 MPH !You're barley doing 20 to start. Understand that your bike is better than you are ! Think about relativity. 60 MPH =88 feet per second.One thousand one, brother, 88 feet.If you are doing that to make a curve your bike is obviously out of shape,suspension is overtaxed,tires are on the edge of traction if not over the edge,everything is wrong,wrong.
My advice learn your bike. Start slow,work your skills,ramp up slowly.Jumping off a start and having to come down from 90 miles an hour on the street says it all, you technique and thinking are incorrect.Even the pros are not making every curve at ninety even though they may average 170 around the track.Another thought , driver pulls to an intersection. Looks your way sees you but you are not close,they look the other way,all clear.You were way down the street when they looked your way. At 90,now you are right there ! yeah you need emergency stop procedure, but you shouldn't have.You are moving at over 120 feet per second.One thousand one.
Not dissing you Bro, just want to pass some wisdom to an over eager youngster..Much respect to the folks on this forum, best bike forum ever. Listen to 'em( and you ARE wearing your gear right? say yes :-)

I think we may be talking about two different types of stops here. Each has it's own technique. If you are slowing with the intent of not coming to a complete stop, and you don't need to stop in the shortest distance possible (this is the case 99% of the time when riders are paying attention to their surroundings), then your technique is the best. However, if a rider is making a true panic stop where they have to get that bike from whatever speed they are going to zero in the shortest possible distance, then pulling in the clutch, downshifting without letting out the clutch, and performing maximum braking (without locking a wheel) is the correct technique. I GOOD rider can do both and knows when and where to do either one.

During my MSF courses, both BRC and ERC, during ebraking the only thing they demanded was you stop within a certain distance and be in 1st when you got there. They didn't really cover how to do it. So I had to figure it out myself :icon_doh:

Trying to juggle the front brake, rear brake, clutch and shifter while staring at the soccer-mom driven minivan is far too much in my opinion for a new rider. So I pulled in the clutch, kicked down to 1st and left the clutch pulled in while I concentrated on stopping (oh yeah, and remembering to put my feet down).

My personal opinion is I do not like engine braking in any emergency situation. The engine is best used to make the bike go, not stop. The situation may suddenly change, requiring you to go instead of stop. And the brakes offer far more control over stopping than the engine does. With experience, the rider will learn to downshift with the clutch in so that if he has to get moving suddenly he'll be in the correct gear to do so. And then its just a matter to letting out the clutch while rolling on the throttle.

But for a new rider whose going to stop the bike suddenly, getting the bike stopped is the priority IMO. So keeping it simple with the clutch pulled in and the bike downshifted to 1st lets them focus on working the brakes.

I am not going to argue pros and cons anymore ...
but ...
As for Kuros quote above ...(and om not picking on you Kuro ..)
This thread seems to be directed at a quite simple panic stop in a straight line ? I have heard no mention of in corners at all as yet ?

Assuming that panic stops, as they have been called here are something that occurs in more places than just in a straight line...

2 scenario's to which I would like the answer too myself from all the new age school trained guys ...

You are in the twisties flying along having a good time cranked over quite allot in a bend and for what ever reason you have to " panic stop "

Q/
are we suggesting that at high speed in a bend cranked over that we rip the clutch in and free wheel and brake like there is no tomorrow to save ourselves from hitting anything on the road that might cause us to have too panic stop ???

Q/
We are in the same situation as above and find ourselves over shooting a bend because we have been a bit too adventurous heading in to it!!..
We need to wipe off speed and get the bike to do things that it's mind was not intending to do as she ripped into the bend in the first place !!
( this is also quite a panic situation if you ask me )
Do we rip the clutch in and free wheel cranked over and brake heavily to slow , change orientation / direction or stop ??

BTW ....to answer these questions ...
I would love it if you guys would avoid telling the me the bloody obvious , that there is a difference between panic stop in these situations compared to straight line one's ... Darrrrrr!! lol

My point with these 2 scenario's is , if you train people to free wheel and brake like a crazzy man to slow or stop when panicked ??

What will they do in these situations?? , apart from again ( the obvious..LOL ) which allot of the time is stand the bike up !! and brake heavily ,which will lock them into a rapid trip off the road more than likely ...!!!

Or should people be trained fully to use what Kurro does not like at all it seems , engine braking .... and brakes and gears to maintain a solid grip on the road and keep the bike under control in ALL SITUATIONS in a panic ...


Or is high speed free wheeling under heavy brakes the current method of staying upright in all situations not just straight lines (I was joking ..lol ) ...??


I could have made this reply quite allot more detailed , but I though I would spare you guys the long version .....lolol

another BTW :
I am hoping not to win an argument here guys , ..that is irrelevant to me !!! , but I hope to broaden the scope of this thread to include a little more regarding heavy breaking in general .... because on the road , life ain't that simple as to only need to panic stop in a straight line ...

Like I said in another reply ....... once to teach a dog a trick one way , it is allot harder to un train them ...

cheers .. :-)
......

I am aware that I am digressing from the original thread topic some what .
I am concerned that , the fact that we have got and do get soooo many new riders read the posts in this place , that keeping this discussion so tight in its original context , may not quite give the right information to guys that are not quite as experienced as others here ...

I personally feel that if you are trained to rip the clutch and free wheel under brakes when panicked , for any reason , that you will tend to do the same thing in other panic situations if it is not thumped into your head that there are more ways than one to keep under control and save yoursel from these situations in the real world on the road ... ...




Steve
...

Mommy the mean Aussie is picking on me! :p

Good point Steve. I thought that the discussion might need to be broken up a bit cause what works in one scenario isn't right for all scenarios. In the middle of a turn brakes aren't always a good idea. And I dont freewheel thru turns ;)

I'd say my advice is for straight line stops, like when someone decides they can male the turn before the sport bike slams into them. To narrow it further, it really only applies when the decision to stop is made. Because stopping isn't the only option in that situation either ;)

Ok. When braking in a corner, you only have so much traction available to brake. You can trade traction from cornering to braking by straightening the bike while slowing, adding more braking while taking away cornering. Or, you can straighten the bike and then do a quick stop...the second technique is taught in MSF courses. And yes, the quick stop is with the clutch pulled in and shifting down to first gear.