CBR600f 2002 sputtering
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From: Pittsburgh, PA
You may have a combination of issues here. It is not common to flood one of these engines. If indeed you are it is more than likely a sign of a stuck injector possibly faulty Fuel pressure regulator. Smell of gas at the exhaust also points to this because more than likley the stuck injector pushes fuel soaks the plug and escapes through the exhaust valve. You did say your plugs were soaked yes? Again the WOT at a stuck open injector makes sense because that valve is not limiting fuel intake. That also may point to faulty pressure regulator. Are you getting proper fuel pressure? Definitely should not be going through that much fuel that fast.
The warming issue to me points to the fast idle wax unit and/or a thermostat problem. I understand it may be cold but the temperture inside an engine should reach proper operating temperture fairly quick, (Definitely less than 10 minutes. even 5) that is the job of a proper working thermo and fast idle unit to achieve proper coolant circulation. The fact you say its taking a long time points to an improper operation of the coolant system. Its hard to say what it is in the way you are explaining it. But sounds like you have a few issues going on here. Either relating too the work you did on it could be coincidence.
The warming issue to me points to the fast idle wax unit and/or a thermostat problem. I understand it may be cold but the temperture inside an engine should reach proper operating temperture fairly quick, (Definitely less than 10 minutes. even 5) that is the job of a proper working thermo and fast idle unit to achieve proper coolant circulation. The fact you say its taking a long time points to an improper operation of the coolant system. Its hard to say what it is in the way you are explaining it. But sounds like you have a few issues going on here. Either relating too the work you did on it could be coincidence.
Last edited by PossibleOne; Dec 17, 2016 at 09:30 PM.
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Joined: Nov 2016
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From: Dorset
No PC.
I do not have gauges etc to check fuel pressure. I have ordered an FPR and should be on its way now. So will know soon if it's the only the FPR or FPR plus something else. I'll have a good look at the injectors when I open it up again this week.Any particular tell tale sign to spot a faulty/loose injector?
I am not too sure about the thermostat.The bike temp looks to be ok and the readings I get are more or less expected and have never fluctuated.It stays at 78-80 C in normal motorway riding and goes up to 85-90 in stop go traffic which always was the case.
I am thinking I should replace the coolant as well not sure when was the last time it was done.
You may have a combination of issues here. It is not common to flood one of these engines. If indeed you are it is more than likely a sign of a stuck injector possibly faulty Fuel pressure regulator. Smell of gas at the exhaust also points to this because more than likley the stuck injector pushes fuel soaks the plug and escapes through the exhaust valve. You did say your plugs were soaked yes? Again the WOT at a stuck open injector makes sense because that valve is not limiting fuel intake. That also may point to faulty pressure regulator. Are you getting proper fuel pressure? Definitely should not be going through that much fuel that fast.
The warming issue to me points to the fast idle wax unit and/or a thermostat problem. I understand it may be cold but the temperture inside an engine should reach proper operating temperture fairly quick, (Definitely less than 10 minutes. even 5) that is the job of a proper working thermo and fast idle unit to achieve proper coolant circulation. The fact you say its taking a long time points to an improper operation of the coolant system. Its hard to say what it is in the way you are explaining it. But sounds like you have a few issues going on here. Either relating too the work you did on it could be coincidence.
The warming issue to me points to the fast idle wax unit and/or a thermostat problem. I understand it may be cold but the temperture inside an engine should reach proper operating temperture fairly quick, (Definitely less than 10 minutes. even 5) that is the job of a proper working thermo and fast idle unit to achieve proper coolant circulation. The fact you say its taking a long time points to an improper operation of the coolant system. Its hard to say what it is in the way you are explaining it. But sounds like you have a few issues going on here. Either relating too the work you did on it could be coincidence.
I am not too sure about the thermostat.The bike temp looks to be ok and the readings I get are more or less expected and have never fluctuated.It stays at 78-80 C in normal motorway riding and goes up to 85-90 in stop go traffic which always was the case.
I am thinking I should replace the coolant as well not sure when was the last time it was done.
Last edited by ceebeeaarguy; Dec 19, 2016 at 05:46 PM.
Welcome Crew Technician
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 515
Likes: 1
From: Pittsburgh, PA
No PC.
I do not have gauges etc to check fuel pressure. I have ordered an FPR and should be on its way now. So will know soon if it's the only the FPR or FPR plus something else. I'll have a good look at the injectors when I open it up again this week.Any particular tell tale sign to spot a faulty/loose injector?
I am not too sure about the thermostat.The bike temp looks to be ok and the readings I get are more or less expected and have never fluctuated.It stays at 78-80 C in normal motorway riding and goes up to 85-90 in stop go traffic which always was the case.
I am thinking I should replace the coolant as well not sure when was the last time it was done.
I do not have gauges etc to check fuel pressure. I have ordered an FPR and should be on its way now. So will know soon if it's the only the FPR or FPR plus something else. I'll have a good look at the injectors when I open it up again this week.Any particular tell tale sign to spot a faulty/loose injector?
I am not too sure about the thermostat.The bike temp looks to be ok and the readings I get are more or less expected and have never fluctuated.It stays at 78-80 C in normal motorway riding and goes up to 85-90 in stop go traffic which always was the case.
I am thinking I should replace the coolant as well not sure when was the last time it was done.
Well, how long does it take actually warm up? If its sub 10 minutes in cold weather you probably are alright.
Just to be sure Upon removal of the throttle bodies did you make the adjsutmments to the cables as per proper removal instructions? Did you reset them properly? Did you touch the throttle when you had it all apart? This could also damage the idle adjustment resulting in similar conditions as to what you are describing regarding the idle. In turn damaging the wax unit. Did you possibly grab the fuel rail when removing? Were you careful when removing the sub harness?
As far as checking the injectors, There are kits out there for it, also companies that specialize in it. But would require removing and then in turn having to service them. You can check with a mech stethoscope, or similar tool and listen for thier actual operation and see if you hear any differences there when they open and close. Other than that you have to start replacing parts if you pull an injector for examination. But you probably are ok so long as you were careful when removing said components. Electrically you can check them with a noid light or a bulb and a paperclip for the pulsing they should be doing. But from what you are describing now I am more leaning towards that idle unit and something a miss happening there.
As far as why well could have been related to the removal process, could be a combination of the two, but its fairly safe to say things are pointing back to that wax unit in some way
Last edited by PossibleOne; Dec 19, 2016 at 09:09 PM.
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Senior Member
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From: Dorset
Well, how long does it take actually warm up? If its sub 10 minutes in cold weather you probably are alright.
Doesn't take long, but somewhat slow at startup, but think this is expected as it doesn't fast idle. But if I give it some throttle it creeps up just fine and when up and running I see no difference from before.
Just to be sure Upon removal of the throttle bodies did you make the adjsutmments to the cables as per proper removal instructions? Did you reset them properly? Did you touch the throttle when you had it all apart? This could also damage the idle adjustment resulting in similar conditions as to what you are describing regarding the idle. In turn damaging the wax unit. Did you possibly grab the fuel rail when removing? Were you careful when removing the sub harness?
I may have twisted the throttle to see the butterflies move, but this was done with the throttle assembly still on the intakes, only with the funnels removed. In any case, I didn't detach the throttle cable assembly from the bodies. I only detached the wiring connectors into the injector, various rubber hoses and sensors. This was done to make space to access the CCT.
Though not 100% sure, but I may also have twisted the throttle after removing the bodies from the intake.But as I said the throttle cables were not removed.
I didn't pull at the middle of the fuel rail but did grab the end(where the end nut is) once or twice trying to pull out the bodies from the intake, but I grabbed the throttle body together with it to avoid exerting force only on the rail.
As far as why well could have been related to the removal process, could be a combination of the two, but its fairly safe to say things are pointing back to that wax unit in some way
Would the wax unit continue to be problem after the bike is up and running? Given that I am facing snatchy fueling at lower rpms and the wax unit only affects startup, I'd think it's something else as well. I think the wax unit works by allowing air when it's cold, so if it were the reason for my problems, it'd be chocking and not allowing air leading to the rich mixture problems I am seeing.It can't be the other way around, i.e not restricting any air. Or does it work by modulating amount of fuel and not air?
Yesterday when I started it up at work, only 3 cylinders fired initially.The pipe 2nd from the left was not hot at all and the exhaust note was like a triumph , only slightly better lol. Then after a while it came on and it was fine, though I did notice something else as well when on the road- I pinned the throttle in 1st from 20 mph and the rpms climbed to around 8-9k. I noticed hesitation and a bit of lag , like the bike was going out of breath a bit, so definitely something wrong at higher rpms as well, just that not at 5-7k rpm where I find myself at on daily commutes.
Doesn't take long, but somewhat slow at startup, but think this is expected as it doesn't fast idle. But if I give it some throttle it creeps up just fine and when up and running I see no difference from before.
Just to be sure Upon removal of the throttle bodies did you make the adjsutmments to the cables as per proper removal instructions? Did you reset them properly? Did you touch the throttle when you had it all apart? This could also damage the idle adjustment resulting in similar conditions as to what you are describing regarding the idle. In turn damaging the wax unit. Did you possibly grab the fuel rail when removing? Were you careful when removing the sub harness?
I may have twisted the throttle to see the butterflies move, but this was done with the throttle assembly still on the intakes, only with the funnels removed. In any case, I didn't detach the throttle cable assembly from the bodies. I only detached the wiring connectors into the injector, various rubber hoses and sensors. This was done to make space to access the CCT.
Though not 100% sure, but I may also have twisted the throttle after removing the bodies from the intake.But as I said the throttle cables were not removed.
I didn't pull at the middle of the fuel rail but did grab the end(where the end nut is) once or twice trying to pull out the bodies from the intake, but I grabbed the throttle body together with it to avoid exerting force only on the rail.
As far as why well could have been related to the removal process, could be a combination of the two, but its fairly safe to say things are pointing back to that wax unit in some way
Would the wax unit continue to be problem after the bike is up and running? Given that I am facing snatchy fueling at lower rpms and the wax unit only affects startup, I'd think it's something else as well. I think the wax unit works by allowing air when it's cold, so if it were the reason for my problems, it'd be chocking and not allowing air leading to the rich mixture problems I am seeing.It can't be the other way around, i.e not restricting any air. Or does it work by modulating amount of fuel and not air?
Yesterday when I started it up at work, only 3 cylinders fired initially.The pipe 2nd from the left was not hot at all and the exhaust note was like a triumph , only slightly better lol. Then after a while it came on and it was fine, though I did notice something else as well when on the road- I pinned the throttle in 1st from 20 mph and the rpms climbed to around 8-9k. I noticed hesitation and a bit of lag , like the bike was going out of breath a bit, so definitely something wrong at higher rpms as well, just that not at 5-7k rpm where I find myself at on daily commutes.
Last edited by ceebeeaarguy; Dec 21, 2016 at 03:12 PM.
Welcome Crew Technician
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 515
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From: Pittsburgh, PA
So the wax unit is correlates to air, but also indirectly fuel. As the wax unit heats up its acts on those starter valves thus allowing more air through the valves. This (the indirectly bit) recieves a value from the map sensor and other sensors, sends those values to the ECU and it then adjusts the mixture accordingly. The wax unit itself functions off of coolant temp to allow that rod to move up and down typically as it heats up it expands pushes on the rod that acts on those valves as said above. So not like a typical choke, its just the way to control air into the bodies, versus stopping air creating rich condition etc.
If the fast idle unit is not correctly operating then this gets back to the sensors that in turn tell the ecu to send more or less fuel, this could and is how these units can affect performance even after startup. Since thats were your work was, its more than likely going to fall in the category of components you had to remove to get to the CCT, not the CCT itself.
The only thing I can really tell you is the primary reason for said problems is typically either vaccum related or air intake related. But defintely not limited to those things just commonly. Since you were doing work on well both in some ways it would be advisable to check and double check all routing and such of those hoses, check at the airbox, restrictions etc. Would be great if you could test for the proper vaccum with a gauge. There is a procedure for this in the book, as far as what hoses to connect to.
You can check the coolant hoses for feel at the idle unit and see after running, they should both be hot to ensure proper function, you should even see it acting on the starter lever as well
If it were me I would backtrack through the issues that we KNOW are happening, IE the idle unit and how it gets affected by said components. Lines and etc. It is definitely odd about the 3 cylinder startup. We have to find out why number 2 did not fire then did?. You said you pulled the plugs, get all your gaps sorted, eliminate that. Check the injectors (just use a screwdriver or similiar tool), check elcectrically, resistance and pulsing) Unless it was just a fluke but either way, shouldnt be happening. Could be traced back to a bad connection, but the fact it started working? Is odd. We need to go through the issues individually and address accordingly. You sound more than capable of understand the work you did so I would go back and check through those steps as far as prioritizing what to check first. Start with the easier things and eliminate.
Edit: Just went back and looked at your plugs. The one with the oil as I see it was that from number 2? (2nd from left)
If the fast idle unit is not correctly operating then this gets back to the sensors that in turn tell the ecu to send more or less fuel, this could and is how these units can affect performance even after startup. Since thats were your work was, its more than likely going to fall in the category of components you had to remove to get to the CCT, not the CCT itself.
The only thing I can really tell you is the primary reason for said problems is typically either vaccum related or air intake related. But defintely not limited to those things just commonly. Since you were doing work on well both in some ways it would be advisable to check and double check all routing and such of those hoses, check at the airbox, restrictions etc. Would be great if you could test for the proper vaccum with a gauge. There is a procedure for this in the book, as far as what hoses to connect to.
You can check the coolant hoses for feel at the idle unit and see after running, they should both be hot to ensure proper function, you should even see it acting on the starter lever as well
If it were me I would backtrack through the issues that we KNOW are happening, IE the idle unit and how it gets affected by said components. Lines and etc. It is definitely odd about the 3 cylinder startup. We have to find out why number 2 did not fire then did?. You said you pulled the plugs, get all your gaps sorted, eliminate that. Check the injectors (just use a screwdriver or similiar tool), check elcectrically, resistance and pulsing) Unless it was just a fluke but either way, shouldnt be happening. Could be traced back to a bad connection, but the fact it started working? Is odd. We need to go through the issues individually and address accordingly. You sound more than capable of understand the work you did so I would go back and check through those steps as far as prioritizing what to check first. Start with the easier things and eliminate.
Edit: Just went back and looked at your plugs. The one with the oil as I see it was that from number 2? (2nd from left)
Last edited by PossibleOne; Dec 21, 2016 at 04:23 PM.
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Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2016
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From: Dorset
So the wax unit is correlates to air, but also indirectly fuel. As the wax unit heats up its acts on those starter valves thus allowing more air through the valves. This (the indirectly bit) recieves a value from the map sensor and other sensors, sends those values to the ECU and it then adjusts the mixture accordingly. The wax unit itself functions off of coolant temp to allow that rod to move up and down typically as it heats up it expands pushes on the rod that acts on those valves as said above. So not like a typical choke, its just the way to control air into the bodies, versus stopping air creating rich condition etc.
If the fast idle unit is not correctly operating then this gets back to the sensors that in turn tell the ecu to send more or less fuel, this could and is how these units can affect performance even after startup. Since thats were your work was, its more than likely going to fall in the category of components you had to remove to get to the CCT, not the CCT itself.
The only thing I can really tell you is the primary reason for said problems is typically either vaccum related or air intake related. But defintely not limited to those things just commonly. Since you were doing work on well both in some ways it would be advisable to check and double check all routing and such of those hoses, check at the airbox, restrictions etc. Would be great if you could test for the proper vaccum with a gauge. There is a procedure for this in the book, as far as what hoses to connect to.
You can check the coolant hoses for feel at the idle unit and see after running, they should both be hot to ensure proper function, you should even see it acting on the starter lever as well
If it were me I would backtrack through the issues that we KNOW are happening, IE the idle unit and how it gets affected by said components. Lines and etc. It is definitely odd about the 3 cylinder startup. We have to find out why number 2 did not fire then did?. You said you pulled the plugs, get all your gaps sorted, eliminate that. Check the injectors (just use a screwdriver or similiar tool), check elcectrically, resistance and pulsing) Unless it was just a fluke but either way, shouldnt be happening. Could be traced back to a bad connection, but the fact it started working? Is odd. We need to go through the issues individually and address accordingly. You sound more than capable of understand the work you did so I would go back and check through those steps as far as prioritizing what to check first. Start with the easier things and eliminate.
If the fast idle unit is not correctly operating then this gets back to the sensors that in turn tell the ecu to send more or less fuel, this could and is how these units can affect performance even after startup. Since thats were your work was, its more than likely going to fall in the category of components you had to remove to get to the CCT, not the CCT itself.
The only thing I can really tell you is the primary reason for said problems is typically either vaccum related or air intake related. But defintely not limited to those things just commonly. Since you were doing work on well both in some ways it would be advisable to check and double check all routing and such of those hoses, check at the airbox, restrictions etc. Would be great if you could test for the proper vaccum with a gauge. There is a procedure for this in the book, as far as what hoses to connect to.
You can check the coolant hoses for feel at the idle unit and see after running, they should both be hot to ensure proper function, you should even see it acting on the starter lever as well
If it were me I would backtrack through the issues that we KNOW are happening, IE the idle unit and how it gets affected by said components. Lines and etc. It is definitely odd about the 3 cylinder startup. We have to find out why number 2 did not fire then did?. You said you pulled the plugs, get all your gaps sorted, eliminate that. Check the injectors (just use a screwdriver or similiar tool), check elcectrically, resistance and pulsing) Unless it was just a fluke but either way, shouldnt be happening. Could be traced back to a bad connection, but the fact it started working? Is odd. We need to go through the issues individually and address accordingly. You sound more than capable of understand the work you did so I would go back and check through those steps as far as prioritizing what to check first. Start with the easier things and eliminate.
The ECU can only modulate the fuel quantity and not the air. If the fast idle mechanism somehow resulted in more air in the system(let's say because the wax unit is faulty and won't push the rod to close the valves on warm up), then the ecu would pump more fuel to compensate that, giving me a proper mixture. This would result in poor startup may be but I should not see any problem at higher rpms as the mixture would still be right?
I feel it's either the fpr or one of the injectors or both.I am utterly confused really. Could be the wax unit as well. I was looking at the dealer prices for parts and full throttle body assembly is £1600. For that price I'd be tempted to buy a vauxhall or something and give up biking completely-especially int his weather.
Regarding one of the cylinders not firing, this is not the first time I had it. read my previous posts on this thread. I think one or more cylinders flood because of the rich mixture and then when things get a bit warm, the spark somehow works. When this happens I see bombs coming out of the exhaust as in flames from detonation so yeah it's very rich. I got like 80 miles from a tankful this time. It'll put the SUV's to shame!
The bike has new plugs(ngk iridium) so not sure they are out of specs , but as I said this happened with the old plugs as well
Just waiting for the fpr to arrive, will open her up and see how it goes. I am thinking if it doesn't work would just give it to a garage and let them fleece me, this change-this-part-and-see-how-it-goes business is now beginning to wear me thin. But then I get this other thought to be patient and do it all myself. Will help me live with the bike(or any other bike for that matter) in future.
Last edited by ceebeeaarguy; Dec 21, 2016 at 05:03 PM.
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 515
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From: Pittsburgh, PA
Ahh yes my friend. Love riding bikes, but you have to take the good with the bad. Unfortunately with so many components and the proper operation of those often relating to each other, you can very quickly get overwhelmed from trying to diagnose specific issues. Thats why I said about starting with the issues we know its having and hoping to get lucky. You sound capable though and half of any problem is comprehension as much as it is working knowledge sometimes. Its just a matter of how much do you want to do/know when it comes down to making them work. I am by no means an expert tech, I will admit. My carreer is a small engine mechanic, but I am very passionate about mechanical engineering in general and love diagnosing, whether right or wrong, I rather enjoy the process of understanding how things work. With that said, you just have to weight it out and what it means to you.
Your understanding is correct however. The issues of some components though could indirectly affect you in other circumstances. It sounds like you are getting surging for example and that has s quite a few reasons as to why it can happen. So the afformentioined things I said attempt to address the big picture (vacuum lines, fuel pressure) could explain why some or all of these things are happening, know what I mean? You said you had none of these issues prior to the CCT change so unless you just have bad luck, it is more than likely related to the removal/installation of the components that create these conditions. It sucks taking all of that stuff off though I understand trust me lol. But just to clarify, the bike was running perfectly before? Do you have many hours of riding to try to determine the operation? Have to narrow down if indeed it was one of the parts you touched, or an ongoing issue even if it was intermittent.
Your understanding is correct however. The issues of some components though could indirectly affect you in other circumstances. It sounds like you are getting surging for example and that has s quite a few reasons as to why it can happen. So the afformentioined things I said attempt to address the big picture (vacuum lines, fuel pressure) could explain why some or all of these things are happening, know what I mean? You said you had none of these issues prior to the CCT change so unless you just have bad luck, it is more than likely related to the removal/installation of the components that create these conditions. It sucks taking all of that stuff off though I understand trust me lol. But just to clarify, the bike was running perfectly before? Do you have many hours of riding to try to determine the operation? Have to narrow down if indeed it was one of the parts you touched, or an ongoing issue even if it was intermittent.
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From: Malta
On my scooter, which uses i think similar FI system to hondas, when you mess about with anything near the throttle body you need to reset the IAC (idle Air Controller) .. this is done by holding the throttle open 100%.. Turn the key on with the stand up and keep the throttle open for 8 seconds... release the throttle and turn key off... then key back on, and start engine.... Until i did this, my scooter idled terrible and even died a couple of times. All you can loose is 15 seconds of your time to try it.
Also make sure that you dont have any vacuum leaks, and that you connected the correct vac/breather pipes to the correct places. If you connected the tank breather to the FPR then of course it wont work as it should for example.
Also make sure that you dont have any vacuum leaks, and that you connected the correct vac/breather pipes to the correct places. If you connected the tank breather to the FPR then of course it wont work as it should for example.
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From: Dorset
I like the simple solutions for complex problems theme which is why I almost ran to the office car park to test it out. Didn't work Thanks anyway for the tip!
@PossibleOne.
Thanks for the words of encouragement. Waiting for the fpr to arrive, will see how it goes from there. I have booked a slot with a garage for rear suspension linkage work so may be will ask them to have a look at the idle as well. Cheers!
Thanks anyway for the tip!@PossibleOne.
Thanks for the words of encouragement. Waiting for the fpr to arrive, will see how it goes from there. I have booked a slot with a garage for rear suspension linkage work so may be will ask them to have a look at the idle as well. Cheers!