What do you do? #1
#23
05-31-2012, 01:58 AM
February 2012 ROTM
Also more gas means more velocity, which means more traction/lean angle to keep the same radius.
When in a lean, giving throttle will create less lean angle...meaning bike will want to straighten out...so pushing the inside bar is very crucial...to maintain lean angle. Pushing outside bar lean lean, inside bar more lean. When exiting a corner, you can throttle out...because bike will straighten out when giving gas.
Entering a corner, your chosen line and vanishing point will determine you comfort speed...if such a scenario that you already in a lean and find that you are too hot...giving gas? IDK, but i rather shift my weight towards inside bar, apply brakes without giving up throttle...
But of course, best is not to be in such scenario to begin with...
When in a lean, giving throttle will create less lean angle...meaning bike will want to straighten out...so pushing the inside bar is very crucial...to maintain lean angle. Pushing outside bar lean lean, inside bar more lean. When exiting a corner, you can throttle out...because bike will straighten out when giving gas.
Entering a corner, your chosen line and vanishing point will determine you comfort speed...if such a scenario that you already in a lean and find that you are too hot...giving gas? IDK, but i rather shift my weight towards inside bar, apply brakes without giving up throttle...
But of course, best is not to be in such scenario to begin with...
#24
05-31-2012, 09:06 AM
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No, I think I understand them.
First I am going to make a few assumptions...
I assume Kuro performed the proper slow, look, press, roll technique (taught by the MSF) for what he assumed was a constant radius corner. I also assume that during the roll step, he added enough "maintenance" throttle to keep his velocity constant, meaning he was neither engine braking or accelerating in the corner.
Now in the MSF Beginner course students are taught to do all of the slowing before the corner. This is because the MSF doesn’t want to introduce an advanced technique to students who are just beginning to ride. However, in the MSF Military Sport Bike Course, trail braking techniques are introduced. Trail braking is nothing more than staying on the brakes as you approach the apex of a corner, as lean angle increases, braking must decrease, or trail off.
There is a finite amount of traction available at either tire, and this traction is either for accelerating, turning, or braking. If you add force in one area (like turning) you must subtract it from another (like braking). There is a great example of this in Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch. The publisher even used the diagram of this technique on the cover (Amazon.com: Sport Riding Techniques: How To Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety, and Confidence on the Street and Track (9781893618077): Nick Ienatsch, Kenny Roberts: Books). You can see where braking percentage trails off from 70% at the beginning of the turn to 0% at the apex and then how throttle is applied at corner exit.
As far as raising ground clearance goes, adding throttle will shift the CG to the rear of the bike, which increases ground clearance at the front end. I think you are having issue with my explanation of how the rear clearance increases. When the bike accelerates, the force is at the rear tire, driving the bike forward. This forward drive tries to push the rear wheel to the front. This force travels up the swingarm to the pivot and shock, which extends, allowing wheelbase to shorten (even if only fractionally) and raise the rear of the bike. Now I will admit, this only works incrementally and if the acceleration is too great, the rearward transfer of weight will override this effect and the bike will squat. So, to be clear, this gain in rear ground clearance only happens at maintenance throttle or with very slight acceleration.
I also still stand by my statement the Kuro did the right thing by applying the rear brake. In fact, if you look in the book Sport Riding Techniques on pg 38 Nick talks about tightening the line by guess what… the rear brake.
First I am going to make a few assumptions...
I assume Kuro performed the proper slow, look, press, roll technique (taught by the MSF) for what he assumed was a constant radius corner. I also assume that during the roll step, he added enough "maintenance" throttle to keep his velocity constant, meaning he was neither engine braking or accelerating in the corner.
Now in the MSF Beginner course students are taught to do all of the slowing before the corner. This is because the MSF doesn’t want to introduce an advanced technique to students who are just beginning to ride. However, in the MSF Military Sport Bike Course, trail braking techniques are introduced. Trail braking is nothing more than staying on the brakes as you approach the apex of a corner, as lean angle increases, braking must decrease, or trail off.
There is a finite amount of traction available at either tire, and this traction is either for accelerating, turning, or braking. If you add force in one area (like turning) you must subtract it from another (like braking). There is a great example of this in Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch. The publisher even used the diagram of this technique on the cover (Amazon.com: Sport Riding Techniques: How To Develop Real World Skills for Speed, Safety, and Confidence on the Street and Track (9781893618077): Nick Ienatsch, Kenny Roberts: Books). You can see where braking percentage trails off from 70% at the beginning of the turn to 0% at the apex and then how throttle is applied at corner exit.
As far as raising ground clearance goes, adding throttle will shift the CG to the rear of the bike, which increases ground clearance at the front end. I think you are having issue with my explanation of how the rear clearance increases. When the bike accelerates, the force is at the rear tire, driving the bike forward. This forward drive tries to push the rear wheel to the front. This force travels up the swingarm to the pivot and shock, which extends, allowing wheelbase to shorten (even if only fractionally) and raise the rear of the bike. Now I will admit, this only works incrementally and if the acceleration is too great, the rearward transfer of weight will override this effect and the bike will squat. So, to be clear, this gain in rear ground clearance only happens at maintenance throttle or with very slight acceleration.
I also still stand by my statement the Kuro did the right thing by applying the rear brake. In fact, if you look in the book Sport Riding Techniques on pg 38 Nick talks about tightening the line by guess what… the rear brake.
I'll clarify.
For starters I stated 'What I would do' as was asked by the OP, which I answered.
Obviously what the OP did was fine for his situation as it worked however if a simple tapping of the brake was enough the rectify the stituation that my opinion would be the he was most likely not really carrying too much speed to make the corner and more likely was mearly startled or caught slightly off guard by the radius on the turn. This action was a very very simple method of mearly correcting a line mid turn. Its not the answer to a panic scenerio where your on the ragged line. I don't think "carry to much speed" and "tapping the brakes" are going to be a huge "suprise" to anyone.
To your statements,
Your descriptions of the effect of adding throttle were in fact accurate, nearly repeating what I had already stated but in more detail granted. The only 'over' estimation is the ground clearance based on gear effect. (Based on your earlier post) Not that this is not entirely true, but the effect is moot in this scenerio as you'd have to #1, apply enough throttle to overcome the centrifical force of the turn collapsing the suspension (not at all intened) and #2, alot of the this effect is accentuated or diminished by the specific design of the rear suspension. Bike designers have been well aware of the phenomenom for many many years. It even exists and have been address in bicycles and just FYI, is the theory behind many multi link rear suspension steups you find today.
Obviously my statement created somewhat of a stir
as I expected. It is a slightly advanced technique and contrary to most peoples first panic reaction but it certainly works, while not included in the MSF, highly skilled as are the riders they target it is actually taught at the Superbike School. I know its served me well with over 30 years of track time under my belt so far. If you've ever seen a racer paint a black strip through a corner, you've seen this in practice already. Thier not just consistntly 'losing it' each time around. In simplest terms it creats a situation of oversteer and allows you to tighten a bike pushing wide. When you are truly pushing wide, you are at the limits the front tires traction. Added brake or rolling off the gas (conversely) puts more weight on the front tire and magnifies the problem leaving the only option of standing the bike up and applying full brake (Assuming you have the run off room) . Rolling 'into' the throttle (as was mentioned) will take weight off the front tire eleviating some of the afformention traction problem, and shifts weight to the rear of the bike. In addition to the back tire having dramtically more traction potential than the front, this action of loading the rear tire makes the bike receptive to oversteer which encourages the rear to come around and the front to point towards the inside of the turn. Its simple physics. The added speed is not an issue and if you've stopped the collapse of the suspension due to any gear effect neither will be ground clearance. In other wards there is no longer anything (but your skill) stopping you from turning the bike in sharper mid turn which you did not have as an option prior. I'm pretty sure the MSF would have something to say about running hot, doubling the speed limit, into an unknown blind corner but I digress.
The idea of the thread as I understand it, was to offer alternative ideas in the hopes some might learn something new. While I agree it may be too advance for some, such as what I offered. Like everything else in life , its just out there to explore or ignore. Your choice.
Last edited by zaqwert6; 05-31-2012 at 09:22 AM. Reason: Dang cell phone keyboards.
#25
05-31-2012, 09:29 AM
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Hehe last paragraph ^
When in doubt gas it out!
Sounds like a lot of people could stand to read twist of the wrist II.
While it isn't the only quality piece of literature out there it does discuss a lot of these principles. Such as how the rear tire does actually move faster than the front.
(sliding the rear allowing for more speed to be carried into turns that zaq is describing)
Also check out the DVD Faster
It talks about the change in riding and traction technology / sliding / corner speed etc.
No one is wrong in this thread but education and practice are key.
When in doubt gas it out!
Sounds like a lot of people could stand to read twist of the wrist II.
While it isn't the only quality piece of literature out there it does discuss a lot of these principles. Such as how the rear tire does actually move faster than the front.
(sliding the rear allowing for more speed to be carried into turns that zaq is describing)
Also check out the DVD Faster
It talks about the change in riding and traction technology / sliding / corner speed etc.
No one is wrong in this thread but education and practice are key.
#26
05-31-2012, 01:03 PM
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I concede to your point Zaq, but it scares me to think people are riding at that level on the street. Steering with the rear is, in my opinion, a technique far advanced to that of trail braking. On the street, the price for failure is far too steep for me to ride at that level. This is what the track is for.
Nice explanation of the technique and how it works.
Nice explanation of the technique and how it works.
#27
05-31-2012, 05:20 PM
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I concede to your point Zaq, but it scares me to think people are riding at that level on the street. Steering with the rear is, in my opinion, a technique far advanced to that of trail braking. On the street, the price for failure is far too steep for me to ride at that level. This is what the track is for.
Nice explanation of the technique and how it works.
Nice explanation of the technique and how it works.
Whcih is why I jumped on Kuro for putting himself there in the first place.
Theres a place for that kind of riding and its not a blind corner off ramp. But enough of that, I already promised. Hopefullytheres some info in here to help someone. Thats all that matters.
#28
05-31-2012, 10:17 PM
Yikes, what did I do?
Just something I do have to say in my defense: I said i was at my mental limits. I wasn't at my actual limits and of course I was nowhere near Yolie's limits. The low side in April has messed with my confidence in turns.
I posted this because it's easy to go into a full blown panic if someone doesn't know what to do if they're going in too hot (according to their SRs). Hell, I won't lie: I glanced at the curb
Just something I do have to say in my defense: I said i was at my mental limits. I wasn't at my actual limits and of course I was nowhere near Yolie's limits. The low side in April has messed with my confidence in turns.
I posted this because it's easy to go into a full blown panic if someone doesn't know what to do if they're going in too hot (according to their SRs). Hell, I won't lie: I glanced at the curb
#30
06-01-2012, 11:54 PM
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I can't count how many times I've had a moment that could have ended very badly. I think we all have them so much, we just look at it as regular riding and don't even discuss them. We are always inches away from disaster and it doesn't take much error or lack of focus on our part to put us into a bad situation. Props to Kuro for always being the one to remind everyone of these things.
As for the question, I always just use more counter steer as I ease off the throttle a just a bit. I don't let off completely though, I keep enough throttle so it doesn't upset the bike. I've always had confidence in the sides of my tires at far lean angles. I have used the rear brake in some cases, but only when the bike is not leaned over very far.
As for the question, I always just use more counter steer as I ease off the throttle a just a bit. I don't let off completely though, I keep enough throttle so it doesn't upset the bike. I've always had confidence in the sides of my tires at far lean angles. I have used the rear brake in some cases, but only when the bike is not leaned over very far.