A question for the top experienced - I think all could learn
 

I have to apologize. I have done a lot of reading, however I don't think everyone thinks in the same terms as I... or maybe do.
I am huge lover of the dirt. I gear up and shred across the desert with my buddies. I want to take it to the streets - and what more fun could I possibly have than on a cbr.
As I have been watching a ton of videos and reading a ton of forums, I haven't come across the information that I've been looking for. I believe the pavement is much more tricky to handle than dirt and consistent loose gravel. The reason for this obvious statement. I see guys low-siding all the time, (and a few high-sides). Dirt, that's all I'm used to doing is sliding around - under steering/over steering, braking hard and piping hot. I see alot of videos that guys come into corners fast enough, they panic and fail. In the event that this would happen, (because I seen & heard about it too many times) what's the best way to hand it?
I know what I would do on dirt, just hanging on the edge, but I'll keep quiet and ask the experienced asphalt guys.
Is there any way to recover from "i'm comin' hot" situation, or is it always "you shoulda been looking further down the road, now it's too late - goodluck" situation?
thanks

All of the top racers (of my time) come from the dirt. You have an advantage in terms of
being familiar with what having a loose rear-end feels like and how to deal with it.
However, you'll still need to get used to how sudden/hard the bike 'whips', when it regains
traction, i.e. highsides. The trick is learning without trashing you and your bike.

In case Kuro's link is too short for you, he's been discussing that very issue you're proposing.

Ern

My first question is... Have you taken the MSF Course? Motorcycle Safety Foundation If not, its a great first step to understanding basic street riding technique & safety.

I grew up riding dirt & motocross. I understand your statements about riding style on dirt, handling in dirt, etc. While having the experience of riding on dirt, it doesn't entirely translate to street riding...especially when it comes to sport bikes. Growing up riding dirt, I was taught to use rear brake, rarely front (I know you understand this). W/ sport bikes, its just the opposite...use front brake for most braking, using rear lightly for stability & in conjunction w/ the front brake. While 'knowing' how to ride a motorcycle puts you ahead of the curve compared to a completely new rider, there are still techniques for sport bikes that simply don't translate from dirt. Also, w/ sport bikes, keep both feet on the pegs in the turns. ;-)

More specifically to your question, you need a good basic technique to build upon. You need that foundation that the MSF provides. You're taught to do most of your braking prior to the turn, look thru the turn, enter & maintain a proper line (hitting the apex), & safely guide your bike thru the exit of the turn.

IMO, one of the most important factors of a turn - is can you see thru the turn? IF you can see thru the turn, then you have a good idea of what's required to successfully complete the turn. When you can see thru the turn, you should already have computed what its going to take to enter (speed), hit apex, exit. If you can't see thru the turn, then you shouldn't be "coming in hot" in the first place.

You can't out-ride your ability. Ability comes w/ technique & experience. You have to start w/ the basics to learn that technique & gain experience. If you don't *ride-your-own-ride* til that experience comes, you'll certainly find that coming in hot situation...which you may or may not be able to recover from.

Case(s) in point... All the time, I see guys get a sport bike b/c their buddies have 'em. They immediately try to keep up w/ the pack. They get in over their heads & crash. They simply don't have the experience or good foundation in proper riding technique to keep up. Also, target-fixation is a huge prob w/ newbs...especially if they haven't been taught to look thru the turn.

Ok, so all the above said... You come in hot to a turn, ie. you've over cooked it...what do you do? I doubt that you're experienced enough to trail brake & back it in, so you're faced w/a decision. Either you maintain your composure & resort to technique...or you crash. Again, as said above, you have to know how to enter the turn on line, hit the apex, & exit...all the while looking thru the turn. Even in a decreasing-radius turn, a rider can tighten his turn if he's over-cooked it...as long has he knows technique. Fortunately, w/ sport bikes, you can increase your lean & turn-in, & tighten up. I won't get into hanging off the bike & dragging knee b/c that's more advanced.

Continue watching those vids (watch races too) & do your reading. Read - The MSF's Guide to Motorcycling Excellence, Twist of the Wrist, Total Control, Proficient Motorcycling, Sport Riding Techniques, etc. Ride your own ride & gain that valuable experience.

Great stuff guys. All this premeditation, reading, & taking that msf is gonna help keep me safe & offer a solid foundation to build on. Im sure it'll go a long way with a lot of riders

I think i know what u mean. In watching videos I see some guys trying to look extra cool and get the bike extra low... bad body positioning then they wash out. Im not eager to ever do that. However, from what I understand by the inside knee opening up like that is from properly turning the bike with the other inside thigh and getting your head down where it supposed to be. Just what I've been experiencing and again, I don't anticipate ever going that fast around any corner that I'll need my knee that far off the bike ... I'll keep watching, reading & learning. Keep building only good habits along the way

The knee out isn't just about balance, though it helps (alot for me). Guys also use it as a lean indicator: when it touches, they've leaned far enough :)

The convo I started was about getting ppl to think about what to do if they're coming in hot (npi) before they get there. New riders, especially those who try to teach themselves, don't really think about it until they start to panic in the turn. Then they grab the front brake (bad) or shut the throttle (really bad). Trail braking is a semi-advanced technique, easy to learn but really needs a controlled environment to practice. Leaning further tends to make the alarm bells in our heads scream louder.

The rear brake is a tool we tend to forget. It isn't the response to the situation ppl should shoot for, there are better options (like not coming in hot in the first place). But it is a response a rider can use while learning the better options. But use it carefully. Its still using a brake in the turn. The front end will compress, though not as harshly as using the front, which will put more tractions demands on it. And locking the rear in a turn will likely make you need a change of underwear, along with potentially setting you up for a high side (ranked just under a head on collision with opposing traffic).

Trail braking is a track only technique ... hitting the front brake in a hot turn on the street is asking for trouble. Too many variables ... oil, leaves, gravel, rabbits (yes, I hit a bunny while fully leaned once ... going in low saved my butt) .

All I can suggest is
"Twist of the wrist" by Keith Code. (California Superbike School instructor)
If you'd like a CD of his book I'll send you one.
(Or get the DVD's and learn........) :)

It'll teach you many things about going fast{er}with more control on the road.

All good advice. Most of my riding is in the mountains of Colorado, beautiful scenery and more than enough twisties with varying degrees of difficulty. I don't consider myself the 'boy racer' anymore but still like my fun. Here you often cannot see around the curve as the roads are carved through the mountains and so on. I just slow down when I cant see far enough for speed. It's foolish not to.An experience I had yesterday morning with my fast crew I ride with. They will generally get ahead of me by a minute or two at the speed they ride. Of course I don't like that much and questioned my skills. Yesterday one of my Boyz had a camera attached. When we were stopped he was showing the results and to my surprise(and Justification) the camera showed he was regularly crossing the yellow line in the curves ! I wont elaborate here but in my opinion, the lines defining my lane are the limit. I rarely cross them because of the obvious danger at least I would think it obvious. that along with two young deer -one who ran to cross then changed it's mind ,the other just standing on the edge. Then only one state trooper( thankfully we were warned by an oncoming rider), I just settled in and enjoyed the ride. My advice follows what has been said. MSF for sure - best 100 bucks you will spend,stay inside your limits. If you cant see where you are going around a curve, simply put - would you run head long in pitch black surroundings? I have my fun and speed is part of it, but I choose carefully when and where.Learn and practice technique Expand your capabilities . Oh BTW, much respect dirt riders, if I had to jump 20 feet in the air,I'd need a diaper:-0