Pilot was absolutely at fault somehow was under the impression this was not a fast rope insertion this happened pre-9/11 to a sister platoon of my it was a loss of seven good Marines for the lack of communication poor judgment and lack of skill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0b5uFwANOs

 

I think you may have posted the oldest video repost ever!

 

Fast rope, slow rope, no rope, landing, flyby, touch and go, matters not. Thepilot just screwed up and crashed into the railing, no matter what the plan was, that approach wasn't gonna work.

 

I actually got to meet one of the enlisted survivors that was on that aircraft when it crashed when i was in dunker training back when i first arrived at flight school. He was screwed up pretty bad, hydraulic fluid in his lungs, etc. Now while no one can say that the pilot wasn't at fault, he also made the point that MANY other factors went into so many people dying. Improper training and use of flotation systems, lack of knowledge on how to egress a sinking aircraft, as well as never breifing everyone on board due to the push to "get it done". One man actually activated his flotation device while in the door of the aircraft, getting stuck and trapping many on board while it was sinking.

Not trying to take any blame away from the pilot, as his actions to remedy his situation were completely the opposite of what every pilot is taught, and he basically PUT his aircraft into dynamic rollover...but just trying to show how a bunch of small things lead up to something like this.

-Adam

 

Will agree with a lot of your post, except for improper training. Everyone in 1/5, hell everyone on the aircraft had undergone intense dunk training. Not just the Force Reconnaissance Operators, but the air crew as well (supposedly the air crew as well). And I consider that an offhand comment which I take personal offense to Sir, based on secondhand information, with due respect to your rank. Water survival training and egressing from a downed aircraft are all part of our standard training unlike the Army. We go in fully knowing that at least 40 to 65% of our operations are wet and we train for that. But no amount of training can prepare everyone for the real-life situation that can and will happen. That's why 11 out of 18 Marines survived this incident. Considering that the operators were caring and wearing about 65 lbs. of equipment and were caught flat-footed. It could have been far worse if they weren't Properly Trained

BTW
The Sea Knight crew chief, a senior NCO was the one who inflated his vest. It was not accidental, he remained with his aircraft as long as possible, trying to help others out of the aircraft and was standing in the doorway, when the rollover occurred.. As for the 4 Force Reconnaissance Operators, who lost their lives. They were making their way to the hellhole to exit the Sea Knight. SSGT Galloway suffered a head injury and dead almost immediately the entire unclassified report is available at global security. I suggest you become better informed before accusing good man of being improperly trained.Also there were only two air crewman who survived this incident would truly like to know Who Was Making This Statement. I personally knew 3 of the operators on boardhad worked and train with themprior to this incident found them to be high speed individuals. Fully acquainted with all aspects of their duties.

 

First of all, i meant no disrespect to anyone on that ship in particular, nor to any branch service. Perhaps "improper training" was the wrong wording. I was simply passing along the information, as recounted from the individual, that some of the passengers might not have reacted in a way that was in their own or other's best interest. Maybe "lack of training", or "not enough training", or anythingn along those lines would have fit better. Regardless, to bring rank into it is a little of a low blow, isn't it hardcorp? I never accused anyone of anything, simply noted that a survivor of that accident made a point to note that there were other things going on prior to the pilot getting caught in the rigging that contributed to the event. Perhaps training had nothing to do with it, people react differently in different situations, no? It's impossible to predict what even the best trained will do when the situation is REAL---some react well, some don't. Again, not attacking anyone or accusing them of not performing their duties---it is just a fact of life that different people react differently.

I would agree hole-heartedly that things could have been much worse, and it's a blessing that those who survived, did. The accident was just that---an accident. No one had planned for it. My attempt was to simply make the point that many factors were involved. Your 1st comment leaves the impression that this was solely the pilots fault, that he was lacking in skill, had bad communication, and made poor judgement. Now by reading as many of your posts as i have, and understanding your vast experience, i know that you know that things like this are never the fault of one action. But others reading your post may not understand that many aspects lead up to an event like this.

I would agree that pilot made a bad judgement call, that caused the rollover. Can you attribute the wheel catching in the rigging to lack of skill? Even the most experienced aviators make mistakes. How can anyone know it was the pilot's lack of communication that kept him from knowing that it was supposed to be a fast-rope insertion? There's just too much that goes into something like this to attempt to blame an individual.

I don't want to get into an argument with you Hardcorp, as i respect you as both a fellow soldier and fellow rider. My intent was not to pretend to be well-informed about the incident, just to pass along information that was presented to me. I'll try and find the video of the survivor who i mentioned, and get it up here.

Allright, so fire away!!!

-Adam

 

lets just quit using those garbage helicopters!! they are death traps!

 

I know a GySgt who is going to explain this a little better at least I hope he is

 

Okay let me see if I can better clarify and I am sorry if, I came on too strong. I have a personal connection to this event a couple of these guys came from 3rd Recon and were my mentors. It was only after the thread about enlistment and special ops associated with helicopters jog my memory. And a short conversation with an old friend who directed me to the video, which up until this time I had no knowledge of. I'm overly sensitive about our training. We in the past have take a pounding in the open on a regular basis on this subject from those outside the pipeline . Sometimes it has to do with the fact we were tasks with operations outside our mission parameters. Because we have the ability to get the job done and keep our mouths shut and those on up the chain of command within the political and military circles don't have to worry about a book being written in less than a decade about it. You also have to keep in mind, WE all work for the same bunch of individuals who decided it was okay to put a whole SEALS contingency on an airfield in Panama when the operation should've been handed off to the Rangers. So when someone outside the loop takes a poke at how we do things. I come down hard for lack of a better term. We were( bitch trained )farmed out all over the world to hone our skills. The Marine Corps finally came online with its own jump school instructors and its own dive instructors within the last decade or so and the pipeline really came to be what it should have been in the beginning. The last commander of 1st Force Reconnaissance LtCol Smith had zero tolerance for anything below perfection. He had absolutely no problem with burning up taxpayers money keeping your *** online until you got it right and this came to any form of MSPF. So, I can assure you it had absolutely nothing to do with Force Recon operators training cant truly speak of the air crews training. And as far as it being pinned on the pilot. The official investigation ruled it was pilot negligence and era where they're outside contributing factors beyond, too fast too hard and too low. Yes, probably there was. It truly makes me sick and pains me that anyone has to lose their life like this. I will say this. The first Osprey crash which killed 17 Marines was pinned on the pilot also. Didn't believe that then and still don't. But that's a whole another fighting hole

 

my uncle flew Cobras in the Army forever and said that those "chinooks" if i pronounced it right are death traps and he would never climb his *** in one unless ordered to do so.

he is currently a flight instructor for United Airlines (after flying choppers with NY State PoPo)

so ill take his reccomendation and never get near one of those stupid contraptions.