CBR 600F4 1999 - 2000 Honda CBR 600F4 Forum

Oil in cylinder, water in oil, engine screwed?

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Old 05-21-2007, 02:37 AM
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Default Oil in cylinder, water in oil, engine screwed?

The cylinder on the left side (clutch, shifter, kick-stand, I think it's #1, but I forget which way they're numbered) is completely flooded with oil.

Past history of the bike: It's a 2000 CBR 600 F4, about 6000 miles on it. Bought it really cheap as a project for the summer, kid had wadded it up years agoand wrecked the plastics, radiator, headers, muffler, forks and front rim. The bike had been sitting for 2 years before I got it, when I first got it I drained the fluids, coolant was a little murky, but didn't look like oil in it, just looked dirty. The oil had a very small amount of water that drained out first (Less thana quarter of a cup, barely noticed it come out), but I figured that could just be from the bike sitting for 2 years without moving, condensation or leaking seals or something.

I was trying to start it the other day, filled it with fresh coolant and Mobil1 15w50,it cranked over a couple times and wouldn't start.I let it sit for a few minutes, fuel pump was priming, I assumed it just needed a little time. I tried again and the starter wouldn't turn over. Pulled the plugs and that plug was dripping with oil, oil dripping out the exhaust port and down the header pipe,oil everywhere. Cranked it over with plugs out to blow the oil out. Let it sit, and oil eventually flooded in there again.

Next I undid the oil pan drain bolt, and water started gushing out. Tightened it back down real quick and drained my coolant, not a drop of oil in the coolant, still looked brand new. Undid the oil drain bolt again and let all the coolant out (there was a LOT). Eventually got to the oil, obviously the oil was very murky as it had been swished around with coolant from trying to start the engine. Drained all my fluids out and that's how the bike is sitting now.

I can't imagine anything being too terribly wrong, as the bike still does turn over, starter works, tranny is fine, etc. The engine had absolutely no damage to it from the crash, there was a little bit of rash on the stator cover, but that's all. Time between filling the coolant and then draining it all back out of the oil pan was less than an hour, the coolant has to be GUSHING out of something to get there, not just a little leak past a seal or something.

Now my question:
What ways could that much coolant get into the oil pan?

These are my thoughts on it:
Bike sitting for so long maybe the coolant seperated, water froze, something inside split, coolant now leaks into oil pan?
Headgasket is screwed, coolant is going right through it straight into the crankcase and settling into the oil pan?
Oil cooler is cracked, coolant being heavier then oil just flows right through it and into the bottom of the oil pan?
I'm no expert, most of my experience is with Japanese cars, not Japanese bikes, those 3 things are the only thing that came to mind without being able to look inside the engine, does anyone have any thoughts on it? How it happened, what can be done to fix it, how it can be prevented from happening again?

Tomorrow I might try filling the radiator up with water with the oil pan drain bolt out, and see if the water goes straight in and right back out, or if it takes time to leak, or if it only gets in there when the engine is turning over. So if anyone has any internal insight as to how/why this is happening, let me know.

Thanks in advance!
(Here'sa picture of what shape the bike is in now)


(Cross posted here from the tech forum in case it is an F4 specific issue, and for future searching help, as I found almost no threads reguarding engine damage in here, I'll update this post as I find more information out)
 
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Old 05-21-2007, 02:21 PM
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Default RE: Oil in cylinder, water in oil, engine screwed?

Well deffintely check the gasket, head/cylinders, but I had a strange thought.If you look under the water pump, while it's installed, there is an inspection hole there.... If it looks worn or is leaking, your mechanical seal is worn out and the pump has to be replaced, as a unit. This is just an idea, but maybe the water pump's mechanical sealis leaking so bad around the shaft that goesinto the crankcase; whichcould be why your coolant ispacking up your crankcase? I dunno, you've already got it the rest of it covered. The water pumpoccasionaly needs to be oiled with molybdenum oil solution through the hole in the water pump below the O-ring when you remove the pump and same to the thrust washer.If it's been sitting around for a couple of years it's hard to tell what kind of condition it truely was when put away. Hope this might help and you find the problem.
 
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Old 05-21-2007, 03:41 PM
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Default RE: Oil in cylinder, water in oil, engine screwed?

ORIGINAL: ajlong

Well deffintely check the gasket, head/cylinders, but I had a strange thought.If you look under the water pump, while it's installed, there is an inspection hole there.... If it looks worn or is leaking, your mechanical seal is worn out and the pump has to be replaced, as a unit. This is just an idea, but maybe the water pump's mechanical sealis leaking so bad around the shaft that goesinto the crankcase; whichcould be why your coolant ispacking up your crankcase? I dunno, you've already got it the rest of it covered. The water pumpoccasionaly needs to be oiled with molybdenum oil solution through the hole in the water pump below the O-ring when you remove the pump and same to the thrust washer.If it's been sitting around for a couple of years it's hard to tell what kind of condition it truely was when put away. Hope this might help and you find the problem.
I checked the water pump before I drained the coolant the first time, there was no leakage in the telltale hole, but it is something easy enough to check so I'll take it apart and take a look, thanks for the suggestion.
 
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Old 05-22-2007, 02:54 AM
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Default RE: Oil in cylinder, water in oil, engine screwed?

Alright, first the cylinder order was as I guessed, 1,2,3,4 with 1 being left (shifter) and 4 being right (rear brake).

Compression results (Cranked over until compression stopped increasing):
1: 50psi
2: 175psi
3: 100psi
4: 110psi

Before I started the engine was sitting with cylinder 1's intake open. During the test cylinder 3 blew a lot of coolant mixed with oil out the exhaust, and cylinder 4 also blew coolant/oil but less of it. Those 2 cylinders also had coolant floating up the intake ports about 1/8 of an inch deep above the lifter.

I'm guessing this means either the heads are screwed, or the headgasket is toasted. I think its interesting that cylinder 2 was so close to perfect though, manual states that compression should be 178. Could that be a sign that something is bad with that cylinder? ie lots of gunk stuck to piston causing what would have been another 50-100 reading to shoot up to 175?

I'm going to drop the engine out as soon as I can, but the weather is supposed to be real bad for the next 2 days so I probably won't get to it until Thursday.
Stay tuned, and I'm still open to any suggestions anyone might have in case I misdiagnosed this one.
 
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Old 05-22-2007, 01:48 PM
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Default RE: Oil in cylinder, water in oil, engine screwed?

If there is that much fluid coming out of the cylinder then I doubt the compression readings are accurate. The fluid takes up volume and can;t be compressed. If you put 50cc's of a liquid into a cylinder the compression would skyrocket because the valves are still closed and there is little room inside the cylinder for air. Your headgasket is bad or the mating surface of the cylinder/head is warped. I think it won't be that hard to get it perfect though. good luck
 
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Old 05-22-2007, 05:27 PM
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Default RE: Oil in cylinder, water in oil, engine screwed?

Yup, sounds like the head is warped. Can you hear a compression squeel when you try to turn it iver with the plugs installed?
 
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Old 05-22-2007, 07:30 PM
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Default RE: Oil in cylinder, water in oil, engine screwed?

I don't know if you have access to a granite plate but I know some guys use a large glass table or something similar to check for warpage. If its not too bad you can take it in to a machine shop and they'll mill it to spec which will slightly increase compression depending on how much they have to take off. Where are you located at?
 
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Old 05-22-2007, 10:30 PM
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Default RE: Oil in cylinder, water in oil, engine screwed?

Ok, then my next question is how could the head have gotten warped? The bike had obviously been running rightup until it got wadded, and it looks like I'm the first person to have ever dug this deep into the engine...
 
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Old 05-23-2007, 02:25 AM
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Default RE: Oil in cylinder, water in oil, engine screwed?

it could have overheated
 
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Old 05-28-2007, 09:40 PM
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Default RE: Oil in cylinder, water in oil, engine screwed?

Found it. Ran some water into the water jackets to find where it was leaking out:
(Contrast increased to better show the outlines of cracks, camera isn't very good this close up)


 


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