Henry's new 1000F CCT
#61
07-21-2013, 03:56 AM
10K mile update
Blimey, I turn my back for five minutes and everyone else's cam chains start chattering away. Its like being back at scheeeeoooooool!
I had to look back through this thread to remember when I fitted the new HCCT. March eh? 10,000 miles in 4½ months, no wonder I've been showing early signs of lockjaw. Must be all that stupid grinning….. gurning some might say.
Practicing for my advanced riding test has been a lot of fun and a lot of time in the saddle.
To summarise:
The construction of the new attachments was based on one of my old CCTs which had around 35K miles on it. Its hydraulic damper was obviously warn and letting oil back past the piston so on it's own it was the perfect recipe for a noisy chain.
Spring and end caps were different to Mk1. The spring was of a lighter gauge this time and the ends I turned from Aluminium. The connecting arm and arrangement of groves to connect it to the top arm of the CCT remains the same and works well. Likewise the clevis joint which connects to the spring shaft. Other minor changes have resulted from a previous inspection at around 4 ½ thousand miles of running (including replacing the cam chain which I didn't do when initially installing the mod) which I won't bore you with other than to say I'm much happier with the design now. There are further improvements to be made.
Initially the joy of having a quiet CC again makes any CBR owner dance for joy. Cold start…….. dong………tumbleweed…….a quiet crisp engine note… grin/ jiggy jiggly.
After 10,000 miles I can still stay the same. I am more upset by tiny vibrations coming from the fairings these days.
Two days ago I decided to take a look under the rocker cover... bit of a health check. I have what sounds like a cam chain grumble when pulling away at lowish revs, as if the chain is becoming slightly slack.
(By the way, it is possible to get the rocker cover off and remove the intake camshaft without disconnecting the throttle cables, or removing fairings FYI.)
I always put the coils back on and run the engine with the cover off every time I'm inspecting the workings. It's important to see how the chain appears, if it's showing any kind of slack/vibration/slap etc. You can take the top guide off to check tension between the cams too.
So after 9,700 miles there wasn't any visible problem, with chain slap, no sign of vibration against the front or rear guides. Under load, (in gear with the back brake on) I can still hear that little rattle. Where's it coming from.
After less than a minute of running it's time to switch off otherwise the oil spilling onto the exhaust pipes will probably ignite and make further investigations somewhat pointless. Clean up!
After removing the whole CCT I noticed a lot of play on the top arm pivot which I mildly suspected could be causing the rattle. Everything else seemed in good shape.
I found another old CCT which had very minor play in the pivot so swapped my bits and bobs over to it and reinstalled.
I have been using a length of rubber pipe on the spring shaft, a) to provide a visible spring compression stop and b) to make sure the shaft can't touch the metal base.
This time I have made the spring a little tighter than it was before.
On starting her up again I notice a light difference in the exhaust note. Minutely crisper.
The rattle is still there. Hold on….. it's actually coming from the alternator area. Bollocks! Wish I'd discoverd that before but hey ho… a different exploration another day.
Out riding yesterday, I noted that the engine performance was subtly changed for the better. It was exactly the same feeling I had when I fitted the Mk 1 to the old bike. There is a definite improvement in cam timing with the extra tension on the CC. The engine seems to have more power on tap which arrives in a more satisfying jolt. It's just crisper. I know you guys would all know what I'm talking about when you've done this mod.
One other thing I'm going to add now as food for thought.
It seemed wise this time that I should take some measurements of force; how much pressure the original CCT spring excerpts at the end of its arm and how much my addition is pulling. Using a simple spring balance…..
Surprising:
Original spring= 3kg
Combined original spring + additional spring= 13Kg
Now I have to admit to you all that I've had no time in the last 10K miles to start making mods for you guys. That's a bloody poor show I know.
If you've got rattling cam chains now though, do yourself a favour, get a new CCT from Honda and whack it in. By the time I've got round to making a final version for sale it'll be time to change that one so let's say we've got another 15-20k miles to go before then.
Phew, that buys me a bit of time I hope!
Edit:
I forgot the other ingredient in the 'food for thought' sandwich.
When the engine is turning over you can see the top of the additional spring rising and falling slightly. Does this not prove that even cam chains have tight spots.
Is this not one in the eye for manual locking CCTs? They can't accommodate that can they!
I had to look back through this thread to remember when I fitted the new HCCT. March eh? 10,000 miles in 4½ months, no wonder I've been showing early signs of lockjaw. Must be all that stupid grinning….. gurning some might say.
Practicing for my advanced riding test has been a lot of fun and a lot of time in the saddle.
To summarise:
The construction of the new attachments was based on one of my old CCTs which had around 35K miles on it. Its hydraulic damper was obviously warn and letting oil back past the piston so on it's own it was the perfect recipe for a noisy chain.
Spring and end caps were different to Mk1. The spring was of a lighter gauge this time and the ends I turned from Aluminium. The connecting arm and arrangement of groves to connect it to the top arm of the CCT remains the same and works well. Likewise the clevis joint which connects to the spring shaft. Other minor changes have resulted from a previous inspection at around 4 ½ thousand miles of running (including replacing the cam chain which I didn't do when initially installing the mod) which I won't bore you with other than to say I'm much happier with the design now. There are further improvements to be made.
Initially the joy of having a quiet CC again makes any CBR owner dance for joy. Cold start…….. dong………tumbleweed…….a quiet crisp engine note… grin/ jiggy jiggly.
After 10,000 miles I can still stay the same. I am more upset by tiny vibrations coming from the fairings these days.
Two days ago I decided to take a look under the rocker cover... bit of a health check. I have what sounds like a cam chain grumble when pulling away at lowish revs, as if the chain is becoming slightly slack.
(By the way, it is possible to get the rocker cover off and remove the intake camshaft without disconnecting the throttle cables, or removing fairings FYI.)
I always put the coils back on and run the engine with the cover off every time I'm inspecting the workings. It's important to see how the chain appears, if it's showing any kind of slack/vibration/slap etc. You can take the top guide off to check tension between the cams too.
So after 9,700 miles there wasn't any visible problem, with chain slap, no sign of vibration against the front or rear guides. Under load, (in gear with the back brake on) I can still hear that little rattle. Where's it coming from.
After less than a minute of running it's time to switch off otherwise the oil spilling onto the exhaust pipes will probably ignite and make further investigations somewhat pointless. Clean up!
After removing the whole CCT I noticed a lot of play on the top arm pivot which I mildly suspected could be causing the rattle. Everything else seemed in good shape.
I found another old CCT which had very minor play in the pivot so swapped my bits and bobs over to it and reinstalled.
I have been using a length of rubber pipe on the spring shaft, a) to provide a visible spring compression stop and b) to make sure the shaft can't touch the metal base.
This time I have made the spring a little tighter than it was before.
On starting her up again I notice a light difference in the exhaust note. Minutely crisper.
The rattle is still there. Hold on….. it's actually coming from the alternator area. Bollocks! Wish I'd discoverd that before but hey ho… a different exploration another day.
Out riding yesterday, I noted that the engine performance was subtly changed for the better. It was exactly the same feeling I had when I fitted the Mk 1 to the old bike. There is a definite improvement in cam timing with the extra tension on the CC. The engine seems to have more power on tap which arrives in a more satisfying jolt. It's just crisper. I know you guys would all know what I'm talking about when you've done this mod.
One other thing I'm going to add now as food for thought.
It seemed wise this time that I should take some measurements of force; how much pressure the original CCT spring excerpts at the end of its arm and how much my addition is pulling. Using a simple spring balance…..
Surprising:
Original spring= 3kg
Combined original spring + additional spring= 13Kg
Now I have to admit to you all that I've had no time in the last 10K miles to start making mods for you guys. That's a bloody poor show I know.
If you've got rattling cam chains now though, do yourself a favour, get a new CCT from Honda and whack it in. By the time I've got round to making a final version for sale it'll be time to change that one so let's say we've got another 15-20k miles to go before then.
Phew, that buys me a bit of time I hope!
Edit:
I forgot the other ingredient in the 'food for thought' sandwich.
When the engine is turning over you can see the top of the additional spring rising and falling slightly. Does this not prove that even cam chains have tight spots.
Is this not one in the eye for manual locking CCTs? They can't accommodate that can they!
Last edited by HenryM; 07-21-2013 at 04:20 AM.
#62
07-21-2013, 04:37 AM
Super Moderator
#63
10-22-2013, 09:02 AM
After my Reno Air Race run out west my CC is speaking out with its playground voice. With only 18k since new chain and CCT, this is so disappointing. I've ordered a new chain and want to duplicate your mod Henry when I open her back up.
I'm trying to source the Clevis joint you used. Any part number or ideas for state side procurement would be appreciated. Your spring is a work bench scrounge I think but any info,dimensions etc. would be helpful.
Has anyone tried opening up the squared hole in the sides of the CCT where the spring stop is shouldered? My thinking is it could lengthen the tensioner arm travel under spring pressure making it take up the slack over a wider range. The original tensioner had less travel than the replacement ones, so maybe just add a dash more.
I'm trying to source the Clevis joint you used. Any part number or ideas for state side procurement would be appreciated. Your spring is a work bench scrounge I think but any info,dimensions etc. would be helpful.
Has anyone tried opening up the squared hole in the sides of the CCT where the spring stop is shouldered? My thinking is it could lengthen the tensioner arm travel under spring pressure making it take up the slack over a wider range. The original tensioner had less travel than the replacement ones, so maybe just add a dash more.
#64
10-22-2013, 08:33 PM
Welcome Crew
After my Reno Air Race run out west my CC is speaking out with its playground voice. With only 18k since new chain and CCT, this is so disappointing. I've ordered a new chain and want to duplicate your mod Henry when I open her back up.
I'm trying to source the Clevis joint you used. Any part number or ideas for state side procurement would be appreciated. Your spring is a work bench scrounge I think but any info,dimensions etc. would be helpful.
Has anyone tried opening up the squared hole in the sides of the CCT where the spring stop is shouldered? My thinking is it could lengthen the tensioner arm travel under spring pressure making it take up the slack over a wider range. The original tensioner had less travel than the replacement ones, so maybe just add a dash more.
I'm trying to source the Clevis joint you used. Any part number or ideas for state side procurement would be appreciated. Your spring is a work bench scrounge I think but any info,dimensions etc. would be helpful.
Has anyone tried opening up the squared hole in the sides of the CCT where the spring stop is shouldered? My thinking is it could lengthen the tensioner arm travel under spring pressure making it take up the slack over a wider range. The original tensioner had less travel than the replacement ones, so maybe just add a dash more.
Good luck matey.
Here's some info I gave Sebasitionbear which you and others may find helpful.
Clevis joint and male end. Buy a pin too. I went for a pair of ø6mm threaded end which were 12 mm thick. The fork clevis will need to be filed down to fit inside the tensioner body. If I remember it's between 10.5 & 11mm. Countersink the outside edges of the pin hole, cut the pin to length (=thickness of clevis joint which you've just filed down) and plain the ends of the pin on both ends to effectively ensure it won't come out. Oh, and you need to file off the corners of the male joint to allow it to bend through more than 90º.
Metric linkages - Springfix
just a shade under 2K miles on the prototype now and still she's quiet as a mouse at all speeds and most importantly, when cold. I still smile.
Here's some info I gave Sebasitionbear which you and others may find helpful.
Clevis joint and male end. Buy a pin too. I went for a pair of ø6mm threaded end which were 12 mm thick. The fork clevis will need to be filed down to fit inside the tensioner body. If I remember it's between 10.5 & 11mm. Countersink the outside edges of the pin hole, cut the pin to length (=thickness of clevis joint which you've just filed down) and plain the ends of the pin on both ends to effectively ensure it won't come out. Oh, and you need to file off the corners of the male joint to allow it to bend through more than 90º.
Metric linkages - Springfix
just a shade under 2K miles on the prototype now and still she's quiet as a mouse at all speeds and most importantly, when cold. I still smile.
#65
10-23-2013, 03:34 PM
#66
11-14-2013, 06:00 PM
Sorry guys, I'm about two months too slow with my reply.
The spring is 60mm long and 18.5mm O/D. The wire gauge I can't remember or even find although I have got the info somewhere, just not to hand.
Essentially the spring is not a monster, you're only adding a fairly minor amount of force.
I now have 25,000 miles on the Mk 2 tensioner and it has performed faultlessly since citing. Not so much as a flutter from the chain even in the coldest depths of Winter.
I will try to make some more time to help you out if you're still making one for yourself but time has not been a common commodity for me this year.
Good luck
H
The spring is 60mm long and 18.5mm O/D. The wire gauge I can't remember or even find although I have got the info somewhere, just not to hand.
Essentially the spring is not a monster, you're only adding a fairly minor amount of force.
I now have 25,000 miles on the Mk 2 tensioner and it has performed faultlessly since citing. Not so much as a flutter from the chain even in the coldest depths of Winter.
I will try to make some more time to help you out if you're still making one for yourself but time has not been a common commodity for me this year.
Good luck
H
#67
11-17-2013, 08:26 AM
Welcome Crew
#68
11-17-2013, 04:36 PM
A valve spring would be OK but just don't over tighten it. Clutch spring..... hmmm, perhaps a bit short and a bit small in diameter. This is not a science and we are not Honda designers with engines to wreck to breaking point. Go with your gut and go easy. Make sure nothing can some loose and I'm sure it'll work out as long as you've thought through what you're doing.
Try ebay. There are lots of springs there. That's where I got the one described above.
Try ebay. There are lots of springs there. That's where I got the one described above.
#69
04-26-2014, 03:45 AM
#70
05-01-2014, 07:01 AM
Though in all fairness, the Honda designers evidently should have wrecked a few more engines before they put them on the market. I think CCT problems are pretty universal in 90's honda engines. Not just the 1000F...